Motorcycle Parking Fees Recommended without Notice or Public Consultation

kiwi said:

I never knew anything of Toronto before I came here. Many years ago in the 90s I travelled the west coast and visited Victoria, Vancouver, Edmonton and Calgary. I knew there was a French Canadian province and also about the east coast. Oh, and some place with the large tower and big lake /waterfall nearby.

My friends in NZ and Australia think I live in a place like Vancouver - that's the image we see on TV and media of Canada.. The Rockies etc.
Only reason I came to Toronto when I got my visa for Canada was my sponsor moved from Victoria to The GTA. (I got assimilated here in the post dotcom fallout and now have settled here...)

Seriously.. many members have PMd me and ask " why the **** would a kiwi want to live here? ."

Most of them are like me, either came here with expectations to leave but get settled.. Or have been sent here due to work.

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Kiwis and Aussies seem to be slowly migrating to the UK, by way of Canada. Brits are going the other way, also by way of Canada.

Some Kiwis are here because they met a nice Canadian girl, at school, then followed her back here. OK, one that I know of.

kiwi said:

Back to the pay by plate thing.
In Wellington NZ they implemented pay by SMS (txt msg for nth Americans) you txt msg your plate details to a special parking number and put "money" in your meter. Handy when needing to top up the meter when out at a show or restaurant.
Motorcycle parking was free on the bays they provide throughout the downtown core. This is similar to what I have seen I Australia too. Free parking at university was awesome.

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SMS is all well and good if you have a cell. Not so much if you don't. The back end also isn't necessarily cheap, depending upon how you go about it. At least with a machine you can drop a coin, or swipe a card. It's not a bad way to go for new installations, in places that don't already charge.

There was talk of needing two machines? but any new pay by plate system would just be replacing of the green p machines with a single unit.. One that could take both car and motorcycle plates and assign associated parking fees based on vehicle.. That would be my expectation. Didn't they replace all the machines a few years ago at great cost?

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kiwi said:

There was talk of needing two machines? but any new pay by plate system would just be replacing of the green p machines with a single unit.. One that could take both car and motorcycle plates and assign associated parking fees based on vehicle.. That would be my expectation. Didn't they replace all the machines a few years ago at great cost?

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It was talk about which system to go with; pay by plate or SMS. There might have been others discussed, but those are the two that I remember.

If they were going to recognize the vehicle type, based on plate number, that would then require a tie-in to the MTO computers. Now wouldn't THAT get the privacy nut-jobs out with protest signs....?

Weren't the replacement machines going into spots that still had old meters?

Rob MacLennan said:

It was talk about which system to go with; pay by plate or SMS. There might have been others discussed, but those are the two that I remember.

If they were going to recognize the vehicle type, based on plate number, that would then require a tie-in to the MTO computers. Now wouldn't THAT get the privacy nut-jobs out with protest signs....?

Weren't the replacement machines going into spots that still had old meters?

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IIRC, the new machines were because the old ones wouldn't recognize the new coins...

Sora said:

IIRC, the new machines were because the old ones wouldn't recognize the new coins...

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Well I certainly do remember that there were a lot of vending machines that wouldn't take the new, lighter Loonies.

kiwi said:

There was talk of needing two machines? but any new pay by plate system would just be replacing of the green p machines with a single unit.. One that could take both car and motorcycle plates and assign associated parking fees based on vehicle.. That would be my expectation. Didn't they replace all the machines a few years ago at great cost?

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The way I read it, they plan to implement 1 new type of pay-by-plate machine that can be programmed for different rates depending on where they are placed in the city. The $175,000 extra cost they reference in the report would be for the extra machines that would be beside the 30 designated m/c parking areas & would be set at the lower m/c rate.

If they get directed to implement a lower rate for m/c's across the city, they will need either twice the number of machines (1 set at car rate & 1 set at m/c rate sitting side by side), or use a machine that lets you chose between car & m/c, and can varify that the plate you entered corresponds with the fee that you chose. Implementing either this type of more complex machine or twice the number of simpler machines would most likely cost much more than the potential revenue generated by introducing a m/c charge.

Hopefully they can figure out that status quo actually works best through the consultation process instead of implementing a flawed system only to find it doesn't work, or costs the city more than it gains.

That seems odd that in this day and age you couldn't code a computer to recognise the difference between a 5-character motorbike plate and a 6 or 7-character car plate.

Okay, custom plates mess that up, but even in that case, wouldn't there just be a selection screen to choose between "car" and "motorbike"? I mean, when the metermaid walks by, they have to have some means of checking the machine (since there won't be slips) and I'm sure that anything that's been entered as a "motorbike" but is really a car would just get ticketed.

Building two entirely separate machines seems like an absurd waste of resources. We're talking about something that only has to be 1/10th as smart as the phone in your pocket.

Of course, "Absurd waste of resources" probably seems like a good reason to build something, if you're on City Council.

Stranger things happen with waste of resources in this city.. Like those $2500 chairs in council chambers..

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kiwi said:

Stranger things happen with waste of resources in this city.. Like those $2500 chairs in council chambers..

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I seriously don't think they would implement side-by-side machines, or even dual priced machines. It's just the thing they need to consider if they want to introduce fair m/c pricing across the City. If its significantly more than they could recoup, hopefully they will be smart enough to maintain the status quo.

Face said:

hopefully they will be smart enough to maintain the status quo.

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Hoping someone, especially government, is smart enough to do XYZ is probably the worst bet in human history.

I'd be happy to take the other side of that bet, for you.

viper84737 said:

Hoping someone, especially government, is smart enough to do XYZ is probably the worst bet in human history.

I'd be happy to take the other side of that bet, for you.

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That's what the public consultation is for. To help them evaluate the issue from a broader perspective and come to the right conclusion. We still have a lot of work to do.

The Council minutes aren't out yet, but the record shows that it was held by Councillor Kelly (go figure). It also shows that the recommendations were amended, but doesn't say what the amendment is yet. Hopefully we'll find out early in the week.

Posted this in the HTA forum but thought that I may find an answer here given the higher traffic. So reposting!

Ive been looking for a map or description of where the currently designated motorcycle parking areas are, because I think that those are likely to be the pilot locations, but I cant find a map or anything saying where they are. I know that one is behind the King Eddy, but I dont think that Front street or Temperance (where there are usually 100+ bikes at) are designated areas. Anyone have a map showing where they are?

My concern is that the deletion of the language that would maintain status quo during the pilot project is not being matched with surveys outlining what size and where designated motorcycle areas should be. I envision that the designated areas will be quickly full and that the overflow will have the same full fare parking ticket issues that Toronto had 10 years ago.

Pay parking is coming for us and based upon the recommendation that they have spots for 300 motorcycles across 25 to 27 areas across the City, I dont think that Council will manage this adequately. Ive spoken to my Councillor once already; I need to speak with her again.

Does anyone know if the currently designated areas total 300 bikes or will the City make more? 300/25 = well under the number of bikes that I see on Front St or Temprance on any given weekday during the summer. What happens when the average of 12 spots per area fill up?

There are no places currently designated for motorcycle parking. That's why you can't find a map. Motorcycles are currently allowed to park in all on-street pay & display areas for free. That has existed since 2005.

That being said, there are spaces where motorcycles tend to congregate. These tend to be on side streets as many riders park for the day, or their parking overlaps with the rush hour parking restrictions on main roads. As an example, riders will park on Simcoe north of King instead of King, because King has a no parking restriction from 7:00 to 9:00 am & 4:00 to 6:00 pm.

Having walked and ridden around the downtown placing notices on bikes prior to this going to Council, I can say that there are easily well over 300 bikes parked in the area bounded by Front, Spadina, College & Jarvis. And that was in October, and with a good part of Front St, plus some other streets blocked with construction. In the peak of summer, there would be even more. I would doubt that even double the 300 would serve the peak demand in the downtown, let alone the whole City.

So it appears that Pay by phone parking will be in place by the end of the summer (starting in the lots, then moving to street parking). Haven't heard anymore details though, but if you have to register your plate/credit card I'd imagine they could have different rates for vehicle type.
http://www.blogto.com/city/2014/05/pay_by_phone_parking_coming_to_toronto/

If anyone has connection to the Tory or Chow camps, we should try to get on their radars. Congestion is already an election issue, and motorbikes and scooters are congestion friendly transportation. Maybe we could get a commitment from the candidates to back the extension of free parking if elected. After all Montreal has pay-by-plate and still maintains it free motorbike parking policy.

|X| said:

Maybe we could get a commitment from the candidates to back the extension of free parking if elected. After all Montreal has pay-by-plate and still maintains it free motorbike parking policy.

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This, or I boycott Toronto for life, and take all my delicious monies with me.

So.. if you dont have a cellphone, or a credit card.. you buy a ticket.. so comes back to the question that "Will Motorcyles/scooters be required to pay for parking.?"

kiwi said:

So.. if you dont have a cellphone, or a credit card.. you buy a ticket.. so comes back to the question that "Will Motorcyles/scooters be required to pay for parking.?"

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Not exactly. I suspect the parking terminals will be changed or modified to include a data input method where you will have to input your license number. Like this:

http://info.gtechna.com/Portals/154767/images/cale-paystation-resized-171.png

So you can still use your credit card or cash, but will not get a display receipt for the vehicle. This removes the prime reason motorbikes got exempted in the first place. Now the only effective arguments to keep the current regime are really to plead decreased congestion and environmental impact.

The current loss of revenue for the city from motorcycle parking is very small, but the issue of fairness to all vehicles is big. But there are many shades of grey along the footprint and regulatory treatment of various transportation devices: skateboards, bicycles, eBikes, Scooters, Motorcycles, Motor-trikes, Smart Cars, Hybrids, Subcompact Sedans, Compacts, Mid-sized, Full sized, Vans, SUVs and Hummers ;-)

Here's the link to the Council Decision and staff report on pay-by-phone:

http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2014.PW30.10

http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2014/pw/bgrd/backgroundfile-67920.pdf

Some key points:

- This links back to a report from the Toronto Parking Authority in the fall of 2011, not the 2013 report from Works Department about creating dedicated motorcycle parking and considering charging.

- Pay-by-phone will augment the existing pay-and-display system so both payment options will be available to the customer. It is considered an additional payment option which will provide customers with considerable flexibility and convenience.

- In order to use their cell phone or other device to pay for parking, customers will create an account with the TPA and register their license plate(s) to their account prior to initiating their first parking session.

- When paying by a cell phone or other device, the customer will receive a parking notification including a transaction number confirming their parking session to the cell
phone or other device which initiated the transaction.

- In the absence of a paper receipt when choosing this option, the proof of payment cannot be displayed on the dashboard of the vehicle. Accordingly, enforcement personnel will verify the proof of payment utilizing their already existing handheld electronic device, and identifying the vehicle by its license plate information in order to connect the payment to a specific vehicle.

- The records for parking pertaining to individual parking transactions will be available to the Parking Tag Operations staff and to staff in the Prosecutions section within Legal Services.

- The by-law changes they are referring to relate to changing the definition of a "Parking Machine" to expand it to include pay-by-phone, reference to notification to your phone about your transaction, and relief from the requirement to display your receipt if you use this method.

So far, so good. There is no reference anywhere in the report about using this method for charging motorcycles, and no mention of the Works report re motorcycle parking. Yes, pay-by-phone will make it easier should they chose to charge motorcycles sometime in the future, but until it completely replaces pay-and-display, there would probably be legal difficulty requiring us all to have cell phones for the sole purpose of paying for parking.

|X| said:

Not exactly. I suspect the parking terminals will be changed or modified to include a data input method where you will have to input your license number. Like this:

http://info.gtechna.com/Portals/154767/images/cale-paystation-resized-171.png

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They aren't planning on changing any of the machines. That would be a huge expense. If you don't have a phone, or don't want to register your plates with the TPA, your option is to continue to use pay-and-display.