Another E-bike goes down.

[FullMotoJacket]

Education about the rules of the road should be mandatory both in elementary and high school.

They used to. I remember the OPP coming into my public school with little pedal cars and setting up a course in the gym, complete with little street lights and stop signs. IIRC, they called it a safety rodeo.

[FiReSTaRT]

It's mandatory just about anywhere else in the world. I even remember being taught proper pedestrian behaviour in the kindergarten. Something to be said about commie dictatorships

[Psilyguy]

Doesn't anyone remember Elmer the Safety Elephant? Or did I just date myself?

[FullMotoJacket]

A week or so ago I sat behind a cop waiting to make a left turn. The light was green for us but there was some opposing traffic. Suddenly some wacked out kid on a tenspeed whips across infront of the cop and through a gap in the traffic and continues on his merry way on the sidewalk. Not a peep out of the cop. He saw him as I watched his head follow the kid. The cop turned and kept going. I thought about reporting it but had things to do. I've seen similar things before and until that attitude changes nothing will be resolved.

You sound suprised. I was sitting at Plains W. waiting to turn left onto 6. An OPP was opposite me on Northcliff waiting to go straight. The light turned green for us. I waited. I guess he was familiar with the intersection, because he waited too. Sure enough, a loaded Cupido dump truck+pup came barreling down 6 and slid through the intersection. The cop waited for him to slide through, then went straight through the intersection down to Plains+York, presumably to the Timmy's across from the Old CTC.

I did have time, and his Staff Sergent got yelled at. I don't think he was happy being called a lying sack of s*** when he told me there was a car out of gas on the 403, and he must have been responding to it.

[adamcbrrr]

Well if Bryant gets out he'll take care of the problem, one way or another

[Vlad]

Exactamundo. People rail on about too many rules and the man keeping us down, but bicycles are a great example of what happens when you let a community police themselves.
...

I respectfully disagree . The focus should be on those that create hazards, impede the free flow of traffic, block intersections, habitually run red lights, etc. regardless of the vehicle they use, even including pedestrians. For example, bicyclists that "run the stop sign" are not doing it any faster than 99% of the cars that pass the same intersection in a commonly accepted "rolling stop". Cyclists can pretty much only harm them self if they don't do it responsibly, while a car running the same stop at the same speed is a much bigger threat to public safety.

"The whole bicycle thing" is an invented/fabricated issue. Even if we buy the hype, how many people other than a small fraction of irresponsible cyclists are or can possibly be seriously affected?

Looking at it from the other side, if motorcyclists were ticketed every time a cop sees us filtering between lanes of vehicles stopped at a red light, the practice will never stand a chance to become accepted. The practice that does not endanger anyone (actually prevents rear-endings) if done responsibly and arguably helps the flow of traffic. If we were officially allowed to filter many of the cagers that get pi**ed when they see a scooter filtering would be riding one instead of bitching, a win-win situation. Free parking did more to popularize two wheel motorized transport in this city than any prohibitionist law in the past ten years. Is that bad?

[Spyug]

Yup. Education is the key but you need enforcement to hammer it home.

Back in the late 50s and early 60's growing up in Britain, you had to take a fairly extensive course and pass a test on rules of the road before you could ride on the street. I believe I was about 9 or 10 at the time. Once you passed you got a certificate and a flag to put on your bike. You weren't supposed to ride on the roadway without it and once you had it you couldn't ride on the sidewalk. I remember once being nabbed by a lady cop for not crossing a street properly and not signalling a turn. They confiscated my bike for a week. I got the hint quick.

The "Elmer the Safety Elephant" stuff is fine for the grade 1 or 2 kids but this is serious stuff. Once kids are 9, 10 or 11 they need to teach them the "facts of road life" and if that means a few bloody pictures maybe they'll start to understand, that and a ticket for not riding with a helmet or riding the sidewalk or any other infraction.

But it shouldn't all be down to the educators and police. Parents need to get involved. Set the right example by wearing your helmet and having your bike properly equipped. Ride on the road and lead by example. Above all don't let the kids out without properly wearing an approved lid ( how many times a day do I see kids with no gear).

I think if kids are tought early it will translate into better and more considerate drivers and that has got to be a good thing.

Spyug

[froghammer]

I respectfully disagree . The focus should be on those that create hazards, impede the free flow of traffic, block intersections, habitually run red lights, etc. regardless of the vehicle they use, even including pedestrians. For example, bicyclists that "run the stop sign" are not doing it any faster than 99% of the cars that pass the same intersection in a commonly accepted "rolling stop". Cyclists can pretty much only harm them self if they don't do it responsibly, while a car running the same stop at the same speed is a much bigger threat to public safety.

Do you live in the same downtown Toronto that I do? I don't see bicycles doing a rolling stop at lights- they just truck on through. I don't see people walking their bikes down Spadina sidewalks- they're riding, ringing their little bell as if to say "Excuse me, slow pedestrian, you're in my way. Comin' up behind ya- on the sidewalk!".

I guess everyone sees different examples based on where they live. Like, people that live out in the suburbs probably don't see bikes on the sidewalk as much as I do because their roads aren't as congested and "scary".

Anyway, I've always been in the camp that thinks you've gotta keep people honest. I think that people are mostly pretty good, but prone to do stupid things if they think nobody is looking or doesn't care.

[froghammer]

Oh yeah, and I hope that nobody is putting me in the "Oh, those stupid scooters" camp because I'm most certainly not. I think they're great and own a scooter myself. Sure, it seems fun to make fun of the type of people that use them but just because they have different transportation priorities than you or I doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to coexist. It's just a matter of making sure everyone is on the same page and following the same rules.

[Spyug]

I respectfully disagree . The focus should be on those that create hazards, impede the free flow of traffic, block intersections, habitually run red lights, etc. regardless of the vehicle they use, even including pedestrians. For example, bicyclists that "run the stop sign" are not doing it any faster than 99% of the cars that pass the same intersection in a commonly accepted "rolling stop". Cyclists can pretty much only harm them self if they don't do it responsibly, while a car running the same stop at the same speed is a much bigger threat to public safety.

"The whole bicycle thing" is an invented/fabricated issue. Even if we buy the hype, how many people other than a small fraction of irresponsible cyclists are or can possibly be seriously affected?

Unfortunately this is not exactly true either. Yes the cyclist might get injured or worse but it is going to affect others just as any accident will. The family members, the police , the first responders, the witnesses and likely the driver that hit or kills them.

Again, a few weeks back I saw a kid on a side walk shoot by a car turning out of a drugstore driveway. The kid was about 10 or 12 riding one of those stunt bikes and , of course, not wearing a helmet. He was coming from the left and the car was exiting to the right. The lady in the car pulled out and smacked him. Knocked the kid into the street and mangled his bike. Blood everywhere. Cars doing panic stops not to hit the body. People jumping out to help. The woman freaking out. Within minutes cops, fire truck and ambulance. The kid was in a bad way and the cops and responders looked a little queasy. The lady talking to the cops collapsed and had to be helped. One girl witness threw up. I didn't feel good myself. The kid did pull through thank goodness.

So these incidents can and do affect lots of people not just the victim. I wonder if that lady has even yet got back behind the wheel of a car.

Just my thoughts.
Spyug

[Vlad]

Unfortunately this is not exactly true either. Yes the cyclist might get injured or worse but it is going to affect others just as any accident will. The family members, the police , the first responders, the witnesses and likely the driver that hit or kills them.

Good point and a clear example, I stand corrected. That kid and everyone involved would benefit way more from proper education/training than any "ban it" law, though.

[TwistedKestrel]

There seems to be a pretty easy solution to me. Just classify e-bikes as mopeds, which do require licensing and insurance.

[topendz]

Wow, that's probably exactly what car drivers say about us. Everyone needs someone to dump on, I suppose.

I know its harsh sorry.

[froghammer]

Nah, it's alright Simon. I've talked to you on the phone before and you seem like a cool guy. No biggie.

[too much]

There seems to be a pretty easy solution to me. Just classify e-bikes as mopeds, which do require licensing and insurance.

You're right. Let's restrict everything as much as possible.

Whoever mentioned that I should become a politician, seemed right, as it seems there is definitelly more public support towards more restrictions, more regulation, ban this, ban the other thing.

As definitelly everything we want to regulate and ban is towards greather good. Ban smoking, ban alcohool, ban salt, ban meat, ban mopeds, ban bicicles. Why should we ever try to assume that people can be educated and become responsible when Big Brother can take care of us, he knows what we need.

On another thread I was considering the domain name upthelimit.ca . Now, just observing some of the threads, I would rather consider getballsontario.ca ... No offence

[Stephany]

Before I digress, I agree with Vlad.

How far can you lean an e-bike? Are they fun in twisties? :P

I ask because the devil has been pleading with me to take my motorcycle on a really lit-up bike path at 3am when I go home.

Which, is just one of those things you think would be great in your head ignoring all sense and reality. But I think it'd be fun on an e-bike. No rules right?

[bobjohnson]

Do you live in the same downtown Toronto that I do? I don't see bicycles doing a rolling stop at lights- they just truck on through. I don't see people walking their bikes down Spadina sidewalks- they're riding, ringing their little bell as if to say "Excuse me, slow pedestrian, you're in my way. Comin' up behind ya- on the sidewalk!".

I guess everyone sees different examples based on where they live. Like, people that live out in the suburbs probably don't see bikes on the sidewalk as much as I do because their roads aren't as congested and "scary".

Anyway, I've always been in the camp that thinks you've gotta keep people honest. I think that people are mostly pretty good, but prone to do stupid things if they think nobody is looking or doesn't care.

Yep, its true. When i used to live out in the suburbs i didnt think too much about bikes on the road. The odd time you see them, the road is generally wide enough, and theyre paying enough attention to not be a nuisance at all, and you treat them like any other road user. Downtown, its an entirely different story. Bikes do all sorts of crazy dangerous things with absolutely no regard to anything around them. Yesterday i saw 4 guys on bikes filtering through traffic on bloor. Nothing wrong with that, they were doing it down the white line between lanes. However, when they came up between 2 cars that were fairly close, the one guy uses his hand all the way down the car to steady himself, and the other guy uses his foot to push off the cars door to keep himself upright, instead of getting off the bike and walking it through, or just waiting. I was just thinking, man, if that was my car, id be ******.

My favorite though are the cyclists who ride the right shoulder with complete disregard for turning vehicles. I cant count how many times ive almost creamed some lance armstrong dude who cut down my right side while im trying to make a right turn. The best was some guy down on lakeshore, i passed him, and my turn was a good 10 seconds down the road. I go to make my turn and all of a sudden i hear "You *******!!" and feel something push my rear tire out. Idiot kicked my rear tire. I had my signal on the entire time, so its not like i cut him off without warning, i was on the right side of the lane and there was no one else behind me so he had plenty of room to go around. I was really really tempted to pull a uturn and chase that moron down, but i realised if i did actually catch up to him, id have probably ended up driving my bike straight into him and that would have been good for no one.

As for the ebikes, treat them like bicycles and be done with it. As much as id love to see these people licenced and insured like any other road user, doing so will drastically reduce their use. It will be exactly like what happened with mopeds. Honestly we need more people out of their cars and on bikes or walking in this city, and requiring licencing and insurance will have exactly the opposite effect. But at the same time, id like to see the HTA applied more evenly to all road users, whether theyre in a car, on a bike, a motorcycle, or whatever. You run a red light? You get a ticket. You pass on the inside? You get a ticket. You crash into someone? You get a ticket. Maybe licence the bikes themselves (Like a 10 dollar one time plate thats yours for life) to make it easier to track these people down when they do crash into cars, or cause an accident and leave the scene.

[Vlad]

Do you live in the same downtown Toronto that I do?

Apparently not. Four years at St. Clair/Bathurst, six at Yonge/Bloor and now at Bloor/Dundas - walking, driving and riding both motorcycles and bicycles. However, I have grown up where very few cyclists dare to get off the sidewalk and pedestrians actually look both ways before they jaywalk across the street.

I don't see bicycles doing a rolling stop at lights- they just truck on through.

I see cyclists go through a red light mostly when they create no danger by doing so.

I don't see people walking their bikes down Spadina sidewalks-

Spadina is actually in China , but I still haven't seen cyclists behave like that there either.

Anyway, I've always been in the camp that thinks you've gotta keep people honest. I think that people are mostly pretty good, but prone to do stupid things if they think nobody is looking or doesn't care.

We don't differ that much. I think people will generally be quite careful if they understand the risks and are thought how to avoid them. Some European cities experimentally proved that by removing all traffic signals, replacing stop signs with yield signs and constructing roundabouts wherever possible.

[froghammer]

Spadina is actually in China , but I still haven't seen cyclists behave like that there either.

Well, I own a house here and they most definitely do. Wrong way down one way streets, not stopping for lights, riding down the sidewalk like it's some sort of a bike path, weaving in and out of traffic...............you name it, I see it on pretty much a daily basis. I'm not lying, so you're just going to have to take my word for it.

[Kiddo]

I was reading this on my strawberry yesterday while in the most boring class of my life, the link is here:

http://www.680news.com/news/headline...4_222405_10744