Proposal to end traffic congestion on the DVP

[Rob MacLennan]

Or increase the density of the city core (which is exactly what the province intends to do) and dissuade people from buying more cars. Which will increase usership of public transit, which would lead to proper funding for it, and make it easier to move around....

If you make it inefficient to move around the city core prior to funding mass transit, the core will die. Businesses are already hurting in the downtown core, because people would rather shop in Vaughan and Mississauga.

[dankyyz]

That would explain the flourishing of big box vendors in the core then. I wondered why they would open up a Best Buy, a Canadian Tire, and a megaplex movie theater within a few blocks of each other.

Many of the people moving to YYZ to work, come from far more congested urban landscapes than here, and pay CASH for a condo 3 minutes from work. That migration will more than make up for anyone who would rather go to Vaughan mall at 8pm (which is when they get home after their commute) than to stop at the big box at Bay and Dundas at lunch time.

People are moving into the core Rob, and not buying cars. Which is to be encouraged. To think that TD Waterhouse is going to move to Vaughan because their employees are ****** about the DVP is... well narrow , and likely the result of listening to too much 99.9 FM.

Chantal Kraviasucks has that effect on many.

If you make it inefficient to move around the city core prior to funding mass transit, the core will die. Businesses are already hurting in the downtown core, because pe
ople would rather shop in Vaughan and Mississauga.

[Rob MacLennan]

That would explain the flourishing of big box vendors in the core then. I wondered why they would open up a Best Buy, a Canadian Tire, and a megaplex movie theater within a few blocks of each other.

Many of the people moving to YYZ to work, come from far more congested urban landscapes than here, and pay CASH for a condo 3 minutes from work. That migration will more than make up for anyone who would rather go to Vaughan mall at 8pm (which is when they get home after their commute) than to stop at the big box at Bay and Dundas at lunch time.

People are moving into the core Rob, and not buying cars. Which is to be encouraged. To think that TD Waterhouse is going to move to Vaughan because their employees are ****** about the DVP is... well narrow , and likely the result of listening to too much 99.9 FM.

Chantal Kraviasucks has that effect on many.

If you think that the core of Toronto can survive on just employers like TD Waterhouse and the TSE, then I suggest you take a trip to Chicago.

[ddusseld]

Who is buying from the Best Buy and Canadian tire? Is it local residents or commuters? Could these stores survive without commuters? I don't know.

The more difficult you make the core to access the more you are going to hurt business. Will big business's move due to a toll road? Don't know. It would have to be a factor. How many of the current employees of these business's could afford to move to a 3 minute walk from them? I sure could not. There is a real reason people move out to the burbs. The reason is real estate prices. It would cost me hundred's of thousands of dollars more to live near to work. I'll never be able to do it. It is nice that new residents to Toronto can afford cash to buy condo's but that does not help the majority of current commuters.

That would explain the flourishing of big box vendors in the core then. I wondered why they would open up a Best Buy, a Canadian Tire, and a megaplex movie theater within a few blocks of each other.

Many of the people moving to YYZ to work, come from far more congested urban landscapes than here, and pay CASH for a condo 3 minutes from work. That migration will more than make up for anyone who would rather go to Vaughan mall at 8pm (which is when they get home after their commute) than to stop at the big box at Bay and Dundas at lunch time.

People are moving into the core Rob, and not buying cars. Which is to be encouraged. To think that TD Waterhouse is going to move to Vaughan because their employees are ****** about the DVP is... well narrow , and likely the result of listening to too much 99.9 FM.

Chantal Kraviasucks has that effect on many.

[Rob MacLennan]

Who is buying from the Best Buy and Canadian tire? Is it local residents or commuters? Could these stores survive without commuters? I don't know.

The more difficult you make the core to access the more you are going to hurt business. Will big business's move due to a toll road? Don't know. It would have to be a factor. How many of the current employees of these business's could afford to move to a 3 minute walk from them? I sure could not. There is a real reason people move out to the burbs. The reason is real estate prices. It would cost me hundred's of thousands of dollars more to live near to work. I'll never be able to do it. It is nice that new residents to Toronto can afford cash to buy condo's but that does not help the majority of current commuters.

From what I see, it's the downtown workers who are shopping when they have a few minutes to spare. They may be commuters or they may be local residents, but most downtown workers are commuters. If the businesses go, then so do these big box stores.

As to things like the new megaplex at Yonge and Dundas, I wonder if they could survive if they weren't also being used as university lecture halls during the daylight hours? There's also a hell of a lot more to downtown than Yonge and Dundas.

[dankyyz]

Would you consider car pooling with others in your "situation" to defray the costs associated with new tolls? Or take transit?

It's the single person in a car that is killing the DVP.

Who is buying from the Best Buy and Canadian tire? Is it local residents or commuters? Could these stores survive without commuters? I don't know.

The more difficult you make the core to access the more you are going to hurt business. Will big business's move due to a toll road? Don't know. It would have to be a factor. How many of the current employees of these business's could afford to move to a 3 minute walk from them? I sure could not. There is a real reason people move out to the burbs. The reason is real estate prices. It would cost me hundred's of thousands of dollars more to live near to work. I'll never be able to do it. It is nice that new residents to Toronto can afford cash to buy condo's but that does not help the majority of current commuters.

[AdRath]

Would you consider car pooling with others in your "situation" to defray the costs associated with new tolls? Or take transit?

It's the single person in a car that is killing the DVP.

And getting people to think about other options is the point of a toll road. We NEED to encourage car pooling and small footprint vehicles. People won't think about these options until their wallet tells them they should. If the city didn't mandate recycling and strict garbage pick up and green bin programs do you think people would reduce and serperate their trash? Probably not.

[dankyyz]

And all the shopping in Liberty Village is for the tourists i presume? Yonge and Eglinton shopping is for....? Queen east is revamping itself to accommodate more high end shopping.

I guarantee you that if people don't want to commute from "the burbs" a lineup will form behind them to gladly take their job.

The difference is that for $300 someone will live in a small condo downtown. The burbanites need 2 car garages, hot tubs, a finished basement, and more room. Not everyone (actually most people) have never had such needs.

From what I see, it's the downtown workers who are shopping when they have a few minutes to spare. They may be commuters or they may be local residents, but most downtown workers are commuters. If the businesses go, then so do these big box stores.

And Ryerson IS downtown for a reason, is a tenant, and that is not the case in Vaughan and never will be.

As to things like the new megaplex at Yonge and Dundas, I wonder if they could survive if they weren't also being used as university lecture halls during the daylight hours? There's also a hell of a lot more to downtown than Yonge and Dundas.

[dankyyz]

+1. People behave in their on self interest. Always. the only way to get people off their ***** is to hit them in the wallet. Human nature. Peopel should get used to it.

And getting people to think about other options is the point of a toll road. We NEED to encourage car pooling and small footprint vehicles. People won't think about these options until their wallet tells them they should. If the city didn't mandate recycling and strict garbage pick up and green bin programs do you think people would reduce and serperate their trash? Probably not.

[ddusseld]

Car pooling is a nice thought as long as you can get people together who work the same hours and are reliable enough to trust. I really have no idea how to go about this. My brother in-law tried this and gave up in frustration.

Transit outside of a go bus does not run when I do my commute and the go bus is extremely unreliable and slow. If there were toll roads put around the core I'd do what many others would do, take to city streets.

Would you consider car pooling with others in your "situation" to defray the costs associated with new tolls? Or take transit?

It's the single person in a car that is killing the DVP.

[Rob MacLennan]

And all the shopping in Liberty Village is for the tourists i presume? Yonge and Eglinton shopping is for....? Queen east is revamping itself to accommodate more high end shopping.

I guarantee you that if people don't want to commute from "the burbs" a lineup will form behind them to gladly take their job.

The difference is that for $300 someone will live in a small condo downtown. The burbanites need 2 car garages, hot tubs, a finished basement, and more room. Not everyone (actually most people) have never had such needs.

And I guarantee you that if people stop coming into the downtown core in order to use those businesses, then those jobs won't be here. Enough major US cities have gone through similar growing pains that I don't need to project a model; examples of the failure already exist.

[ddusseld]

I'm not sure what your $300 reference is about? Difference in mortgage? If so, then the number would be much larger.

If I lived downtown I'd still want a car and a garage and a back yard etc. Would I need these? Yes if I wanted to continue doing what I do now. No if were to change my life to accommodate where I lived.

And all the shopping in Liberty Village is for the tourists i presume? Yonge and Eglinton shopping is for....? Queen east is revamping itself to accommodate more high end shopping.

I guarantee you that if people don't want to commute from "the burbs" a lineup will form behind them to gladly take their job.

The difference is that for $300 someone will live in a small condo downtown. The burbanites need 2 car garages, hot tubs, a finished basement, and more room. Not everyone (actually most people) have never had such needs.

[lil red bird]

I never said it would be easy fun or cheap to do what i said needs to be done.
In my opinion it is the most logical way to fix what we have with the least disruption. The bus lanes easy to do just some bylaw changes.
the rail links if light rail is used i would think that it would be fairly easy to do.

[AdRath]

And I guarantee you that if people stop coming into the downtown core in order to use those businesses, then those jobs won't be here. Enough major US cities have gone through similar growing pains that I don't need to project a model; examples of the failure already exist.

What would you propose? The fact is something has to be done. We can't build more roads to congest with more cars. The sad reality is that transit funding has to come from somewhere unless they add another tax on gas (which effects everyone) why not let the users pay. I'm sure if there was a guarenteed revenue streem (tolls) then the Transit money would be put in place. Transit has to be cheaper than driving and other than increasing the cost of driving how else can you convince people to take cars or carpool.

Now I'm not talking 407 types rates here I think $0.50-$0.75 each time you enter the city wouldn't disuade anyone but the funds would add up. Maybe even $1 each vehicle to enter the city it would encourage people to car pool. What is splitting $30 a month between 3-4 guys. People piss that money away on much sillier things daily. Why not harness it to create a much better/faster/cheaper transit system so people will seriously conisder not driving into the city. That doesn't mean not coming into the city just not by cars.

The fact that most major metropolitan cities have had to implement toll roads etc means it has to be done for a reason. Cheap car transit does nothing but encourage suburban sprawl, polution, and a burden to the infrastructure. Maybe its time people re-think what they NEED in order to live and be happy. We need to re-think our priorities.

[dankyyz]

Sorry ... $300K. Condo cost.

Want and need are two separate things. The people who move downtown might want that, but cant afford it, and live 5 minutes from work. They also ride bikes, eat out more than a suburbanite, and take more advantage of the amenities of a large, modern city.

People move here from places that have the same general lifestyle, ours is just nicer, more modern, and cleaner/safer.

They dont have to change anything, as they never had/wanted what the average suburbanite cherishes most.

I'm not sure what your $300 reference is about? Difference in mortgage? If so, then the number would be much larger.

If I lived downtown I'd still want a car and a garage and a back yard etc. Would I need these? Yes if I wanted to continue doing what I do now. No if were to change my life to accommodate where I lived.

[dankyyz]

Absolutely. The "one person in a SUV driving 50 minutes each way to work" thing is a western issue.

The only way to make moving people around cheaper is to increase density.

The two are at odds with eachother. Cars are going to loose. People will still travel to the city to work, just not alone, or on the train.

What would you propose? The fact is something has to be done. We can't build more roads to congest with more cars. The sad reality is that transit funding has to come from somewhere unless they add another tax on gas (which effects everyone) why not let the users pay. I'm sure if there was a guarenteed revenue streem (tolls) then the Transit money would be put in place. Transit has to be cheaper than driving and other than increasing the cost of driving how else can you convince people to take cars or carpool.

Now I'm not talking 407 types rates here I think $0.50-$0.75 each time you enter the city wouldn't disuade anyone but the funds would add up. Maybe even $1 each vehicle to enter the city it would encourage people to car pool. What is splitting $30 a month between 3-4 guys. People piss that money away on much sillier things daily. Why not harness it to create a much better/faster/cheaper transit system so people will seriously conisder not driving into the city. That doesn't mean not coming into the city just not by cars.

The fact that most major metropolitan cities have had to implement toll roads etc means it has to be done for a reason. Cheap car transit does nothing but encourage suburban sprawl, polution, and a burden to the infrastructure. Maybe its time people re-think what they NEED in order to live and be happy. We need to re-think our priorities.

[Rob MacLennan]

What would you propose? The fact is something has to be done. We can't build more roads to congest with more cars. The sad reality is that transit funding has to come from somewhere unless they add another tax on gas (which effects everyone) why not let the users pay. I'm sure if there was a guarenteed revenue streem (tolls) then the Transit money would be put in place. Transit has to be cheaper than driving and other than increasing the cost of driving how else can you convince people to take cars or carpool.

Now I'm not talking 407 types rates here I think $0.50-$0.75 each time you enter the city wouldn't disuade anyone but the funds would add up. Maybe even $1 each vehicle to enter the city it would encourage people to car pool. What is splitting $30 a month between 3-4 guys. People piss that money away on much sillier things daily. Why not harness it to create a much better/faster/cheaper transit system so people will seriously conisder not driving into the city. That doesn't mean not coming into the city just not by cars.

The fact that most major metropolitan cities have had to implement toll roads etc means it has to be done for a reason. Cheap car transit does nothing but encourage suburban sprawl, polution, and a burden to the infrastructure. Maybe its time people re-think what they NEED in order to live and be happy. We need to re-think our priorities.

What I suggest, is supporting public transit to the levels that other major cities do. This must be done prior to an increase in ridership and in order to promote it, not in response to what will likely never come. Being reactive would be stupid and the current council is trying to force people onto public transit, that is insufficient for the task.

It would require sizable cash injections from the Province which is Toronto's due, as the engine that drives this Province's economy. Too many Premiers in the past have neglected this city, to the point of starving the Golden Goose, and it has to stop. ALL or Toronto's Federal and Provincial taxes can't be rerouted to other areas. Some must remain here.

[AdRath]

What I suggest, is supporting public transit to the levels that other major cities do. This must be done prior to an increase in ridership and in order to promote it, not in response to what will likely never come. Being reactive would be stupid and the current council is trying to force people onto public transit, that is insufficient for the task.

It would require sizable cash injections from the Province which is Toronto's due, as the engine that drives this Province's economy. Too many Premiers in the past have neglected this city, to the point of starving the Golden Goose, and it has to stop. ALL or Toronto's Federal and Provincial taxes can't be rerouted to other areas. Some must remain here.

Hey no arguement there about giving Toronto is due from the province. I just don't see that happening anytime soon. Hence why we need to find other revenue streams. I agree transit needs to be built upon but where is the money going to come from? If there was a guarenteed streem down the road (tolls) then investment now is great and would likely happen but to put big money into transit with no guarentee of money from the province just won't work.

Do you honestly think people paying $0.50 to $1 to enter the city limits would really disuade people from coming to Toronto or to quit their jobs? I don't.

Prices of products and services rise all the time. People continue to consume. And the transit system gets its much needed funding.

I also would love to see parts of downtown become pedestrian and bicycle zones. With transit service. Businesses would do a lot better as people tend to browse and show rather than just pass through.

[Rob MacLennan]

My response to that would be, "Do you honestly think that it would only be $0.50 to $1.00 to enter Toronto?"

[dankyyz]

Do you honestly think it impossible to imagine that this would be the case? As in, people with transponders pay $1.00 and "others" pay a different sum just like the 407? Even if it was way more, there is nothing to substantiate a claim that it will ruin the city.

I also think the city can leaverage their contribution to the transit issue against the province and the fed as "leaders of progress" to make it a norm throughout the large cities in Canada.

My response to that would be, "Do you honestly think that it would only be $0.50 to $1.00 to enter Toronto?"

http://www.downtownexpress.com/de_21...idgeisnot.html

Much higher prices than we are talking, but even still...the process did not `burn out` the downtown core of london either...