Proposal to end traffic congestion on the DVP

[cbranje]

It occurred to me that its likely the case that most of the people clogging up the DVP during morning and afternoon rush hour don't reside with the city of Toronto and therefore aren't paying property or many other municipal taxes to the City of Toronto.

My proposal, since the DVP is a city run highway, is to tax anyone who doesn't live/have their car registered in Toronto $5 or so for entering the DVP from 7-9am or exiting from 4-6pm, from lets say the 401 to the next 3 or 4 most southern on/off-ramps. The whole thing would be reversed in the afternoon. Revenues could go to the TTC, or road maintenance. Do it with the camera system they have on the 407.

This will be easy to pass politically since anyone affected by the tax won't be voting in any Toronto election and those that will vote will enjoy a quieter DVP and increased revenues. It will generate revenue that could go to the DVP or other roads, or the TTC and it will reduce congestion by encouraging people to take the train.

Thoughts?

[ATTS]

Good thinking but then people would ust get on the highway at6:05 to come home or enterthe highway from one of the enterances you were talking about that don't have to pay. One other thing is you woul get a lot of people getting off the highway, take roads for a few km then get on where they don't have to pay and that would wreak havoc on the city streets

[pfbmgd]

It occurred to me that its likely the case that most of the people clogging up the DVP during morning and afternoon rush hour don't reside with the city of Toronto and therefore aren't paying property or many other municipal taxes to the City of Toronto.

My proposal, since the DVP is a city run highway, is to tax anyone who doesn't live/have their card registered in Toronto $5 or so for entering the DVP from 7-9am or exiting from 4-6pm, from lets say the 401 to the next 3 or 4 most southern on/off-ramps. The whole thing would be reversed in the afternoon. Revenues could go to the TTC, or road maintenance. Do it with the camera system they have on the 407.

This will be easy to pass politically since anyone affected by the tax won't be voting in any Toronto election and those that will vote will enjoy a quieter DVP and increase revenues. It will generate revenue that could go to the DVP or other roads, or the TTC and it will reduce congestion by encouraging people to take the train.

Thoughts?

Ya another tax .That will solve the problem .

[cbranje]

Good thinking but then people would ust get on the highway at6:05 to come home or enterthe highway from one of the enterances you were talking about that don't have to pay. One other thing is you woul get a lot of people getting off the highway, take roads for a few km then get on where they don't have to pay and that would wreak havoc on the city streets

Well having a lot of people wait until 6 to come home is exactly the type of behavior the tax would be designed to encourage. A lot of people wouldn't or couldn't wait and would just pay the tax.

There would be a lot of issues to work out, but I doubt any of them are unsolvable. If we have to have every entrance/exit from 401 to gardener, don't think thats a huge deal, theres only 10 or so of them. With computers nowadays we can do some many creative things. I mean it doesn't even have to be a flat $5 tax, it could be time of volume adjusted.

Aside from building more roads which has been shown not to reduce congestion, or building more subways (unlikely to happen at the scale we need) what other options are there? I haven't done any research on the London downtown experiment, anyone know how that turned out?

Carmen

[cbranje]

Ya another tax .That will solve the problem .

In general I'm against blanket taxation like income tax, but pay-per-use, like property taxes or road tolls are totally justified. Highways aren't free right?

[tat2]

I haven't done any research on the London downtown experiment, anyone know how that turned out?
Carmen

I watched a documentary on traffic that looked into this. Apparenty at first it worked, drive times lowered. However in the long term they are almost back to what they were.


Forget the DVP toll, you know they wouldn't just tax out of towners they would charge everybody. Also the side street use would increase dramatically affecting city streets. The DVP just wasn't designed to handle the traffic it does. They should have build the scarbroough expressway. (Gardnier @ DVP to 401 @ Hwy2)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Municip...ays_in_Toronto

[Malks]

Personally I could care less about that road. You have to be a friggin idiot to sit in that traffic day after day. Some mornings I need to get from my office near Yonge / Sheppard down to the Lake Shore / Leslie area and that is the last route I would even consider. The quickest route I have found is to use Don Mills Road, or go a little farther east and take Pharmacy or Birchmount and then double back. I would rather ride / drive 20 km out of my way than sit in traffic.

I hate road tolls, particularly those on the 407 because of the added fees and the fact that it was built with our tax money and then sold so we can pay for it all over again through tolls. So your suggestion might actually work, because it would be a cold day in hell before I would pay to use the DVP.

[Rob MacLennan]

Start charging people a substantial amount just to enter the city and you'll find businesses will move to Vaughan, and Mississauga. The core of the city would die.

[ZX600]

It occurred to me that its likely the case that most of the people clogging up the DVP during morning and afternoon rush hour don't reside with the city of Toronto and therefore aren't paying property or many other municipal taxes to the City of Toronto.

My proposal, since the DVP is a city run highway, is to tax anyone who doesn't live/have their car registered in Toronto $5 or so for entering the DVP from 7-9am or exiting from 4-6pm, from lets say the 401 to the next 3 or 4 most southern on/off-ramps. The whole thing would be reversed in the afternoon. Revenues could go to the TTC, or road maintenance. Do it with the camera system they have on the 407.

This will be easy to pass politically since anyone affected by the tax won't be voting in any Toronto election and those that will vote will enjoy a quieter DVP and increased revenues. It will generate revenue that could go to the DVP or other roads, or the TTC and it will reduce congestion by encouraging people to take the train.

Thoughts?

Just imagine how ****** you are gonna be when the people in Ajax start charging you for entering their portion of the 401 (since you don't pay tax to the town of Ajax) or the town of Vaughan charges you for going up the 404 - Come on! It drives me crazy when regular citizens suggest the government starts charging for something that is free, I tough that was the politicians jobs so they can get re-elected, of course after saying that is for the greater good, or for the children....or it's god's work like Fantino

[camber]

Start charging people a substantial amount just to enter the city and you'll find businesses will move to Vaughan, and Mississauga. The core of the city would die.

It's not like that isn't already happening and that's without tolls!

The city of Toronto's transit plan is perplexing and bias against personal motorized transportation is frightening.

[Fingolfin]

correct me if I'm wrong but im pretty sure a percetage of my taxes go to the city of Toronto (I live in York Region)

[gAbRoO]

HOV lanes/car pool lanes might help.

[Metastable]

HOV lanes/car pool lanes might help.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO oo


The way they have HOV lanes set up on the 400 series highways is so stupid and dangerous. They should only be ACTIVE HOV lanes when someone at traffic control activates them or during explicit times. Otherwise it should just be a regular passing lane. You get too many "because I can" drivers clogging that lane up when they would be moving just as fast in the slow lane. Seriously, what's the point of using that lane when you can travel the same speed in another lane? You get doppy doing 80kph because him and a passenger are in the car and then everyone else is trying to merge back into the regular lanes in order to cut back in further ahead.... it is a STUPID system.

Now if they did it like in Houston where there is a cement barrier between the HOV lane and regular traffic... has its own on and off ramps completely seperate from the highway.... then fine.

What we REALLY REALLY need is a GOOD mass transit system. Have highspeed rail lines that go from Hamilton, Guelph, Barrie, the Shwa etc... coming into TO and have only 2 or 3 stops along the way.

So Hamilton, Mississauga, Etobicoke, Downtown. from there get feeder routes that get you to most general areas in the city with a more extensive subway system that does the milk run.

I mean if someone could make it from Hamilton to downtown in 30 minutes, why would they even bother taking their car?

[Bandit Bill]

It occurred to me that its likely the case that most of the people clogging up the DVP during morning and afternoon rush hour don't reside with the city of Toronto and therefore aren't paying property or many other municipal taxes to the City of Toronto.

My proposal, since the DVP is a city run highway, is to tax anyone who doesn't live/have their car registered in Toronto $5 or so for entering the DVP from 7-9am or exiting from 4-6pm, from lets say the 401 to the next 3 or 4 most southern on/off-ramps. The whole thing would be reversed in the afternoon. Revenues could go to the TTC, or road maintenance. Do it with the camera system they have on the 407.

This will be easy to pass politically since anyone affected by the tax won't be voting in any Toronto election and those that will vote will enjoy a quieter DVP and increased revenues. It will generate revenue that could go to the DVP or other roads, or the TTC and it will reduce congestion by encouraging people to take the train.

Thoughts?

David Miller, you $!@$er, is that you?

[jc100]

The congestion charge in London (UK) was deeply unpopular when it was introduced (and to some extent it still is) but, the traffic situation in central London does seem to have improved a bit, enough for me to notice the before and after effects though.

There's one big difference with London and Toronto though. The Underground system in London extends way,way outside the city limits and has extensive stops, it's huge, and mass transit has a pretty good capacity to take extra people parking outside to the downtown areas and outlying areas too.

Maybe I'm wrong, I think the TTC is good, but it doesn't seem to me that it would be able to cope with the extra passengers this would introduce.

[camber]

^^ and that's the problem.

Toronto public transit system barley functions properly as is. However, they are trying to force people out of their cars into alternative that barely works. That is not a good plan...

[adawar]

The congestion charge in London (UK) was deeply unpopular when it was introduced (and to some extent it still is) but, the traffic situation in central London does seem to have improved a bit, enough for me to notice the before and after effects though.

There's one big difference with London and Toronto though. The Underground system in London extends way,way outside the city limits and has extensive stops, it's huge, and mass transit has a pretty good capacity to take extra people parking outside to the downtown areas and outlying areas too.

Maybe I'm wrong, I think the TTC is good, but it doesn't seem to me that it would be able to cope with the extra passengers this would introduce.

I agree with everything except the part about TTC being good. It would need to be beefed up to accomodate additional routes/times to be really effective. Especially for people coming in from outside the city.

[lil red bird]

Some time ago I proposed a plan that was sweeping and would help this issue a great deal.
1. left most lane of the 401 from bomanville to well Mississauga goes away
2. left most lane of the QEW goes away
3 replace it with a rail corridor with stops at major interchanges
4. run buses(streetcars etc) north south on those roads in dedicated lanes
5. do the same with all east west routes
6. merge all local transit company's in to one
7. run it at the provincial level
thoughts?

[Rob MacLennan]

Some time ago I proposed a plan that was sweeping and would help this issue a great deal.
1. left most lane of the 401 from bomanville to well Mississauga goes away
2. left most lane of the QEW goes away
3 replace it with a rail corridor with stops at major interchanges
4. run buses(streetcars etc) north south on those roads in dedicated lanes
5. do the same with all east west routes
6. merge all local transit company's in to one
7. run it at the provincial level
thoughts?

Political infighting between the various levels of government would make this an unlikely alternative, unless mandated by the Province.

A Provincial government that mandated this sor tof thing would be unlikely to win a second term; third at the outside. Think of Harris.

The centre right-of-ways that should have been used as a rail corridor have been removed in favour of additional lanes, which would now need to be undone for rail links, at much increased cost and congestion.

We may well be past the point of no return where this is concerned, thanks to short sightedness in the late 1960s. There should be two or three more north-south corridors and at least one more east-west, but they were canned.

Ultimately it may be bite the bullet time and completely screw up traffic in the GTA, to make this sort of thing happen. The inner most traffic lanes could be partitioned off for buses, then a suspended track could be run down the centre of express lanes. The alternative would be wide-ranging subway routes, with traffic moving above them. I wouldn't want to be the politician who made it happen and I wouldn't want to have to commute to downtown Toronto while it was underway for a decade or more, but I suppose that it will eventually happen.

[AdRath]

Just imagine how ****** you are gonna be when the people in Ajax start charging you for entering their portion of the 401 (since you don't pay tax to the town of Ajax) or the town of Vaughan charges you for going up the 404 - Come on! It drives me crazy when regular citizens suggest the government starts charging for something that is free, I tough that was the politicians jobs so they can get re-elected, of course after saying that is for the greater good, or for the children....or it's god's work like Fantino

Ajax and Vaughan don't own those roads the province on Ontario does so no need to worry about that. Toronto Owns the DVP and Gardiner which is why they are 90km/h and not 100km/h zones.

We in Toronto have to pay more to register a vehicle than anyone from outside. I'd love to get some value out of it.

I'm all in favour of making toll roads for out of town drivers. All the people come into the city and use the resources but don't pay a lick of tax to support the infrustructure they burden.