Going in front at stop lights? Legal?

[Bumbobee]

Vehicles in Ontario already have different rules of the road based on size of the vehicle to best flow traffic. Why not extend the courtesy to small vehicles like motorcycles, scooters etc.

I guess the truckers should be screaming to use the left most lane... after all cars and motorcycles do it? Vehicles sizes have different advantages and it is stupid and wasteful to not allow vehicles to best utilize their size.

I guess I am also one of those rare bikers that has no issue with someone coming into my lane to make a right turn when I am at the lights (I sometimes move over to give them space) after all its about traffic flow and letting a few cars make a right on a red helps everyone else as once it turns green the pedestrian flow holds up most right turns. Most NA are too selfish that they can't see beyond the 'I was here first' crap to see the bigger picture.

Yup, 100 % true. I have no issue with cars pulling up beside me and turning, I always make space. I even go one step further and do it with my car also, not to mention that I change lanes (on a 2 lane road) from right to left when approaching a stop light just in case someone is behind me and wants to make a right turn, that way they don't have to wait for the light to turn green.

Edit:

Haha random funny story. When I first got my bike I was riding somewhere and came to a stop light, I was in the middle of the lane. This asian lady behind me in a minivan comes up behind me and starts honking, she wanted to turn right. I'm like "wtf is her problem?". Then I had this mental image flash of traffic in Thailand or something and bikes/cars riding around in a chaotic harmony giving way for each other etc. Not that she was from Thailand, but I kinda understood her point of view lol.

[AdRath]

You're overthinking this. There aren't enough motorcycles or scooters to create this scenario. This is Toronto, not Rome or London. Ride on Queen St. West during rush hour and see if you are not tempted to use the space between traffic and parked cars. Try it a few times and find out how easy and safe it can be if you do it with caution and let bicycles have the right of way.

exactly. Most of those who get all agasp about the safety aspect are also those who never drive in heavy traffic downtown.

I honestly would rather be between cars at stops as there is a much less chance of being rearended by a driver not paying attention. I see it all the time and in a car its just a bumper rub not a big deal but on a bike its a huge deal.

[SweetOnion]

I call BS. You'd be screaming at him because he came into your lane. Guaranteed!

hahaha.... Well I might ask him to do a wheelie for me.

and if he didn't ..... Maybe I would try and smoke him before the light turns green.. annnndd punch off his mirror..

[Duster929]

It is illegal in North America. Probably the only place in the world where it is illegal. Also the place in the world with probably the lowest amount of motorcycle riders as a proportion of the population. There's a link there.

Lane splitting is legal in just about every other place on earth. It's not about respect, selfishness, or any other ridiculous personal notion that North Americans have. North Americans take driving WAY too personally. Guess what, it's not a race. It doesn't matter if someone else gets to the finish line first. It's about each mode of transportation moving in a way that's appropriate for them.

The same people who scream about lane splitters don't even bat an eye when a bicycle passes them. What's the difference, besides having a motor? In other countries you have bicycles, scooters, motorcycles, cars, and trucks. And each gives respect to the other by letting them move in a way that's appropriate for them.

Lane splitting should be legal. Unfortunately our motorcyclists are so badly trained, that I don't think they could use the privilege properly. And our drivers are so competitive that it would make their blood boil to see someone pass them (unless, of course, they could pass them right back, as with a bicycle.)

Sad state of affairs.

--- D

[AdRath]

Lane splitting should be legal. Unfortunately our motorcyclists are so badly trained, that I don't think they could use the privilege properly. And our drivers are so competitive that it would make their blood boil to see someone pass them (unless, of course, they could pass them right back, as with a bicycle.)

Sad state of affairs.

--- D

Sadly you are correct.... But I can still dream.

[Brian P]

The european viewpoint is that the motorcycles are faster anyway, so letting them through to the front makes better use of the road and won't slow down the cars. The american viewpoint is that everyone has to wait their turn. Doesn't make sense but it is what it is.

And don't get the impression that *everything* is better in europe as far as traffic goes. Case in point: no right turn on a red traffic light, no matter how clear it is in the other direction!

[Riceburner]

... see if you are not tempted to use the space between traffic and parked cars. ....

it's done occasionally.

[Duster929]

The european viewpoint is that the motorcycles are faster anyway, so letting them through to the front makes better use of the road and won't slow down the cars. The american viewpoint is that everyone has to wait their turn. Doesn't make sense but it is what it is.

And don't get the impression that *everything* is better in europe as far as traffic goes. Case in point: no right turn on a red traffic light, no matter how clear it is in the other direction!

Yes, but much fewer traffic lights. How come we don't have those roundabouts here?

--- D

[Griffin]

I doubt it, he's got a 120 big bore, you'd be straining that Subaru a bit Plus in Europe a lot of cars are diesel and small, they don't take off all that fast, particularly Poland where he's from.

It's not about being important dude, I'm not an ******* guy, it's just pretty logical to do. Obviously one shouldn't do it if he/she isn't prepared to ride faster than the car they just left behind. I know there's a lot of people on here that think they are bad *** etc, but trust me I'm not one of those guys.

For me personally if someone were to do that in a bike, even a fast car, I'm cool with is, so long as he/she is ready to proceed faster than I am. I've had the rare case where a car has done it to me while I'm driving in mine. They take off fast, but once they reach a certain speed they drive slow, yea that's pretty annoying.

I honestly think drivers here are pretty dumbed down and want everything to be as simple as possible in order to survive the road. Seeing a motorcycle in the back and letting them go front is much too complicated.

Points well taken and well said. Thanks.

[Torren]

People that jump lines are very irritating. Whether its at the bank or at the red light.

Perfectly said. Get in line and wait your turn.

[Xhumeka]

Perfectly said. Get in line and wait your turn.

Sometimes I think slow drivers who hog the left-hand (passing) lane on a freeway have the same philosophy...

[R6ce]

Sometimes I think slow drivers who hog the left-hand (passing) lane on a freeway have the same philosophy...

I agree but i think they dont realize that the passing lane is used to pass other cars and not to drive the speed limit on it. Sometimes i think they get enjoyment that they are holding up traffic or making people go around them.

[Duster929]

Perfectly said. Get in line and wait your turn.

Do you feel the same about bicycles?

--- D

[jc100]

That would be bicyclists.

I know most bicyclists want cars to do a full lane change to get around them instead of squeezing-in/sharing a lane.
... but at the same time, they'll filter to the front of the line at a stoplight ALL the time, sharing a lane.

Apart from Lance Armstrong how many cyclists keep up with the flow of traffic? You can't use bicycles as an example for this here. All bicycles are required to use the right hand side of the road nearest the curb or a designated cycle lane unless they are turning. Motorcycles are given equal privelages to cars (in the majority of cases) and are expected to behave the same.

Retrogrouch: Just because currently there aren't enough motorcycles in some areas to make my points a concern doesn't mean it will never happen. Even if there's more than one motorcyclist filtering at a light where do they go? There isn't enough room unless you impede either pedestrians or other vehicles in the intersection or the front car has to leave room for motorcyclists (which isn't going to happen!!) or you make an illegal lane while you wait between cars with engines running, and although it doesn't happen often, if you drop your bike you're going to have an effect on the car at your side as there's generally not enough room in this situation. And one last point...the lane you're talking about with parked cars in is a valid lane to travel in if there's enough room (at certain times of the day in some cities there are empty stretches of this lane too with just the occasional parked car in), I think most people are concerned with motorcyclists moving between existing lanes with driven vehicles either side.

[Duster929]

Apart from Lance Armstrong how many cyclists keep up with the flow of traffic? You can't use bicycles as an example for this here. All bicycles are required to use the right hand side of the road nearest the curb or a designated cycle lane unless they are turning. Motorcycles are given equal privelages to cars (in the majority of cases) and are expected to behave the same.

Retrogrouch: Just because currently there aren't enough motorcycles in some areas to make my points a concern doesn't mean it will never happen. Even if there's more than one motorcyclist filtering at a light where do they go? There isn't enough room unless you impede either pedestrians or other vehicles in the intersection or the front car has to leave room for motorcyclists (which isn't going to happen!!) or you make an illegal lane while you wait between cars with engines running, and although it doesn't happen often, if you drop your bike you're going to have an effect on the car at your side as there's generally not enough room in this situation. And one last point...the lane you're talking about with parked cars in is a valid lane to travel in if there's enough room (at certain times of the day in some cities there are empty stretches of this lane too with just the occasional parked car in), I think most people are concerned with motorcyclists moving between existing lanes with driven vehicles either side.

In downtown areas, plenty of bicyclists keep up with the flow of traffic.

Also, bicycles are expected to respect all the same rules of the road as other vehicles, and yet no one (at least no one who is sane) gets bent out of shape when they don't. You know why? Because it's no skin off my nose if a bicycle passes me or if a bicyclist gets through downtown traffic faster than I do. But if it's a motorcycle, the average motorist blows a gasket. It's silly.

As for the rest of your arguments, there's no need for hypothesizing. There is lane splitting in many places all over the world, so we don't have to wonder what will happen if there's lots of bikes, or where they will go, etc. There is lots of every day, empirical, observable evidence. And the fact is, filtering works quite well almost everywhere that it's allowed. Which is, almost everywhere.

--- D

[jc100]

In downtown areas, plenty of bicyclists keep up with the flow of traffic.

Also, bicycles are expected to respect all the same rules of the road as other vehicles, and yet no one (at least no one who is sane) gets bent out of shape when they don't. You know why? Because it's no skin off my nose if a bicycle passes me or if a bicyclist gets through downtown traffic faster than I do. But if it's a motorcycle, the average motorist blows a gasket. It's silly.

As for the rest of your arguments, there's no need for hypothesizing. There is lane splitting in many places all over the world, so we don't have to wonder what will happen if there's lots of bikes, or where they will go, etc. There is lots of every day, empirical, observable evidence. And the fact is, filtering works quite well almost everywhere that it's allowed. Which is, almost everywhere.

--- D

I think you'll find it's tollerated....as opposed to working well unless you choose to ignore the large numbers of scooter and moped deaths each year in Italy for similar reasons (ie not obeying lane markings).

Have you ever driven in Florence, Italy? It's one of the only places I've ever been where the likelihood of driving over the feet of scooter riders/motorcycle riders is extremely high as they are so close to the surrounding cars. It is tollerated, but it's not safe when taken to these extremes.

PS we were driving a minibus and I'm never doing it again if I can help it.

[Duster929]

I think you'll find it's tollerated....as opposed to working well unless you choose to ignore the large numbers of scooter and moped deaths each year in Italy for similar reasons (ie not obeying lane markings).

Have you ever driven in Florence, Italy? It's one of the only places I've ever been where the likelihood of driving over the feet of scooter riders/motorcycle riders is extremely high as they are so close to the surrounding cars. It is tollerated, but it's not safe when taken to these extremes.

PS we were driving a minibus and I'm never doing it again if I can help it.

Yes, I've driven in Italy many times. Motorbikes, even. In many cities, including Florence, but more distressingly, in Naples and that region. I'm not saying it's safer to ride bikes or motorcycles over there. What I'm saying is that whether they filter or not has no impact on the safety of riding or of cars. I would suspect, actually, that it's safer to filter there, because you're between cars instead of getting rear ended or passed by cars. If they didn't filter, their roads would be a joke. Filtering works there because it helps the traffic flow, and I really don't think that can be debated very much.

As for scooter deaths, I would suspect they have more motorcycle deaths, but not so many scooter deaths. I know of many people who have had bike and car accidents there, but of all the hundreds of people I know there, I don't know any who have been seriously injured on their scooters. The vast majority of scooter kilometres are ridden in dense urban areas where speeds are pretty low. That's really what we're talking about when we talk about filtering. Dense urban areas.

--- D

[Jogh]

No one complains about the Lance Armstrong wanna be's riding through red lights and stops signs - seems the rules don't apply to them. But that's why I don't do it - puts me in the same class as them the way I see it.

120 bore ? not a big deal - honest.

[Baggsy]

It's illegal. Don't do it.
Don't make me say more, you won't like what I'll have to say.

[psycho44]

I don't filter to the front at stopped red lights but I find it frustrating to have to resort to snaking to the front once the light turns green. It's a dangerous move that achieves the same effect as filtering but I guess people see snaking as earning your way to the front of traffic.