Reply With QuoteY2KR1 flips his, and he runs 1:14's at Soar...ask him JP.
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Add me to the list of people saying you are out-riding the stock shock. The tire wear and what you're describing both suggest that. It was not designed to cope with the cornering loads from running the bike with slicks. Proper settings can make a big difference to how the bike feels and how the tire wears and a lot of it has to do with the valving and shims inside the shock.Originally Posted by JohnnyP636
I've never had a reason to flip tires around ... I've always had the tires (Bridgestone slicks) go "off" before they get to the wear limits. This is on a bike with half the power of yours, but also narrower tires.
If you are turning the bike into a bucking bronco by being rough with it, there is only so much that the suspension can cope with ... some of it is riding style. I always strive to give smooth control inputs that don't upset the chassis, and it also means that if something wants to lose grip, I have a fighting chance of feeling it starting to let go before it becomes a *big* problem.
Y2KR1 flips his, and he runs 1:14's at Soar...ask him JP.
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Ohlins? Accelerated Technologies (John Sharrard) is the best in the business. Just make sure he is aware of what you want, and be prepared for a certain amount of trial-and-error. It's inherent in the process, because personal preferences are part of the deal, and that means there is no universal one-size-fits-all solution.
Maybe TLdeano can chime in for me, he was talking to me about needing suspension work after watching me turn some laps....I dunno how it looks, only how it feels riding ....[/QUOTE]
Ok, you asked for it. This is what I'd do....
You can flip your tires to get a few more laps out of them, no harm there. Just remember the best is gone in them tho.
I watched (with one eye open)while you did the last corner a few times, the fans liked it, but it will end abruptly unfortunately.
Your bike needs more wheel control, dampening.
You first need a tie strap on your shock shaft and fork which will indicate if you need more spring preload (and comp damping), or a stiffer spring.
When your killing your shock stroke, you ask the tire to offer more suspension, and under acceleration, you overwork the carcass, heat it up, and start tearing it, (feathered look).
You can look up the stock spring rates front and rear easily enough and see if its close to your weight recommendations ( racetech site is good for this info). Your not a big guy, so I doubt the spring is too soft. This will let you get the proper static sag #s. But do this first.
Now, second, the way your bike was pogo-ing, you need some damping dialed into the shock, probly both comp. and rebound, do one at a time ,2 clicks at a time, at a lapping day until it begins to track over the bumps under power.
Dont be afraid to turn the clickers, they will turn back if it feels worse.
If you run outa clicks, you need a shock revalve and refurb, or an Ohlins, depending on where you wana put your money. More is not better tho, the best is just enough.The stock shock is kinda 'Fisher Price' tho , you were talking amateur racing there I think, so an Ohlins is the standard.
Theres alot of truth to what was said about riding style, smooth is fast, and laptimes are what we're looking for here, but we dont wana ride slower to get around a bad setup bike.
When you sort this issue out, your laptimes will drop slightly, and youll run into a new problem, welcome to roadracing! (so ive heard)
Last edited by TLDeano; 08-17-2009 at 08:25 PM.
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WORD ! Word for word listen to what Brian is telling you. If I had listened to him I would not have wasted 3 years track days with wrong suspension setup and little progress. John did my bikes and everything is finally sorted now. To be fair there are other good suspension guys too (Ryan was already mentioned). The advice I can offer is use a local person. I was using someone in Cali and it was a total waste of time. When I took my suspension to John he just totally picked it apart and without me even telling him anything he started telling me what
he was willing to bet I was experiencing. My shock was undersprung and had too much preload put on it (beyond the ohlins published limit for that spring) Then he pointed out subtle clues on the shock shaft indicating I was totally using the wrong part of the shocks range.
Starting this year out the basics were done for me, springs and sag. And at the track days I would go and see him when he had some time with the bike hot after a session and let him do whatever he wanted to dial it in. A few clicks here and there and he has the bike setup far beyond MY limits. No matter how hot I'm brave enough to come in it will make the turn, no matter early I am trying to smoothly roll on the gas the bike holds the line flawlessly. It was the best money I ever spent on this hobby. A very good point was made above once you overcome problem A and start to move forward you will reveal problem B. Now you have to figure it out. For me problem A was the bike was fundamentally sprung way too soft, couldn't hold a line. Thats fixed. Now I've discovered Problem B. ME. I have no timing after a certain point, I'm lost out there, my braking is either too early or too late and I have no stamina, get brain and body dead too early, not flexible enough etc. Time to get in shape !
I don't know Dunlops at all so I can't offer any specifics there. But I've run the Metzeler/Pirelli tires for 4 years now at track days and for certain riding style can make a tire look like yours or it can make it look perfect. I'm not quick by any means, I'm sort of at the front of the intermediate group generally speaking. If I ride smooth and clean, my tires look like the perfect dunlop that was shown on page 1. If I'm riding all jerky and getting on the gas way too hard way too late (to make up for traffic) they look all rolled up and shagged after that session.
Thats without touching pressures or suspension settings I can at will make my rear tire look like yours in the pic, or nice and clean like the second pic. So just keep an open mind about it all and enjoy !!
Last edited by Martin; 08-17-2009 at 06:34 PM.
...Um.....you can flip the rear tire?? This is news to me. Here I've been getting rid of the tire once the right side is gone. Is this true of all Dunlop slicks? I guess the directional arrow is just a suggestion? I'm really not being sarcastic....I'm in shock that this is actually an option.So I can just flip this Dunlop slick around, to get some more use out of it? Will I feel any difference running it backwards? You cant really tell from this pic, but just looking at it you can see the right side is worn about 90% more then the left, and the angle is very steep...
And Ive heard that TMP is nice on tires, but I am not....So is this average wear or too aggressive on the throttle? I smoothed out my style alot since my first day, but I still want to get on the gas harder. And Ive also been told my rear shock can not handle what Im trying to do. On corner exits when I try to power out, it just bucks and bucks....I know I need to either get warmers or stop pushing it the first few laps, because I wear the tire too much when its cold. "cold roll" is what I heard some people say about my wear....
The tire is the same all around, but AFAIK the directional arrow usually is for tires with treads into them to help disperse water and other debris from the contact patch.
On a slick it does not matter much since you have no tread to begin with but if you flipped your rain tire around, I don't think you'd enjoy the performance
Actually, no matter what kind of tire, slick or not,the way the belts are layed makes the rear stronger for acceleration, and front stronger for braking. (but only very slightly.)The tire is the same all around, but AFAIK the directional arrow usually is for tires with treads into them to help disperse water and other debris from the contact patch.
On a slick it does not matter much since you have no tread to begin with but if you flipped your rain tire around, I don't think you'd enjoy the performance
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Good point - make sure you do the zip tie test and before that, make sure you know where the mechanical travel limits are on the suspension. After a track session, if the position of a zip-tie snugly fitted around the fork or shock rod indicates that you are getting close to the travel limit or actually bottoming, you need to do something about it. Bottoming out will make the bike squirm all over the place and will chew up the tire.
Another thing - stock forks normally have a much higher hydraulic compression damping in the last 20 mm or so of compression travel to resist bottoming. You can feel it if you compress the forks by hand with oil in them but the spring not installed. You want to stay out of that ... it makes the bike really squirrelly under braking or when leaned way over on bumps (and will chew up the front tire). It is possible to rebuild the forks to remove this. BUT ... Knowing that JohnnyP is a stunter, doing that mod means no more landings from 12 o'clock wheelies with those forks, because they'll slam the front end straight into the mechanical limit, and that's a good way to bend or break stuff! (Not that Johnny doesn't already know about breaking stuff ...)
It's true ... When you are getting close to what the bike will do, the bike will ALWAYS be doing "stuff" ... that's how it's telling you that it's not happy and you'd best not be going any faster. So then you change something to fix that and you go a fraction faster (maybe), until something else starts happening ...
I do it all the time for Practice and Trackdays. And yes as Yamaha_Gurl posted I did run 1:14's in a heat race last SOAR round with a front turned around, but a New rear. 1:14.1 Novice 600X record.
The Pirelli has the Zero Degree Belt system. I see no difference running at 90% pace with them reversed. I normally take a few laps to clean them up and then get a feel for the grip on the left side. I flip them with about 80-100 laps and then get another 50+ laps. At this point I can still sell them to street guys
JohnnyP636 get the suspension done. It will be Night and Day. My stuff is done by ThermosMan and with some tuning the bike is fantastic.
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if you are a new track rider, then maybe it's your riding position that may need adjusting as well. doing that properly will let you carry more corner speed and get on the gas sooner and harder becasue the bike is more upright on the fatter part of the tire.
You mean I cant gas it when Im leant over like this? but but I want too, and scrape my handle bar ends!
Just after that I stand her up and try to lay on the gas, and thats where my crowd pleasing rear end pogo sticking action happens.Basically right here
..I play with that turn alot, its one of my favorite turns, I could pass alot of people there but Ive been told its not a good place, so Im patient now and wait till later even thou any traffic in that turn slows me down to the point I actually have to let off the throttle competely and get on the binders so I dont rear end anyone
Last edited by JohnnyP636; 08-18-2009 at 11:17 AM.
that's a dangerous looking picture. bike looks good at that angle of lean though.
your ***** sticks out more than your head. your head has to be where the mirror would be on the bike. (that far forward and to the side). I'm not saying that, that is going to be your miracle solution to your tire problem, but would help getting on the juice sooner.
hope to see you at the track. I've followed your bike build on kawiforums.
I feel really comfortable at that angle on the slicks....I only slide both wheels at that angle a few times, otherwise the slicks are like glue even at that angle...For the crowd of coarsethat's a dangerous looking picture. bike looks good at that angle of lean though.
your ***** sticks out more than your head. your head has to be where the mirror would be on the bike. (that far forward and to the side). I'm not saying that, that is going to be your miracle solution to your tire problem, but would help getting on the juice sooner.
hope to see you at the track. I've followed your bike build on kawiforums.
And about the body position, Im working on all of that too...Remember Ive only been to a track 3 times so far, and I went from not even comming close to scraping knee the first day, to this...So Im improving every time I get out there....Appreciate the advice...I know there is alot I need to work on, the exiting part is that Im already pretty fast even thou Im doing alot of things wrong...
as long as you are having fun and trying to learn something new everytime you're out there, then it's always an improvement. are you gonna be at the next golo days at shannonville?
Wasnt planning it on but please post the info for that track day, and maybe I can make it out....I need to get out there with faster riders....
Thats what I missed most at the last track day, it was great to get so much riding time...However it would have been really nice to have someone to follow and/or chase...Seemed like I was the fastest rider during the day, or just the only person pushing it on Fri morning/afternoon...I got passed once by my friend after 6pm, reeled him back in and was never passed again...Other then that and passing people to keep on my pace, I was all alone out there
And it sucks cause my 2nd track day that is where I learned the most, just following other people that were faster...I want to be passed again..LOL
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They put on a great track day. Most of the time i'm reasonably quick compared to the rest of the advanced group but every once in a while Frank Trombino will pass me in a spot i didnt think it possible to pass.
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What day is the best generally? riding time wise? I dont need to be out there with pros, for this track day maybe Id be better off in intermediate?
Last edited by JohnnyP636; 08-18-2009 at 11:56 AM.
wow that is some nice lean in that pic above. Body position seems a bit too vertical, try to keep your bike more vertical by moving your body off. As for the rear sliding, try to reduce your rebound damping a couple clicks, make sure your chain is not too tight, and set the pre-loads for the amount of sag you would like. I have learned recently that some simple suspension modifications can SERIOUSLY improve the feel of your motorcycle!!
Also as riding position goes some advice I have heard is to mimic what the ultra fast guys do, example:
More power, must have MORE POWER MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
the day that doesnt rain.
I ride in intermediate.
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