urgent help needed!!! goto court Friday Aug 14

**zhulin_can** · 08-12-2009, 01:03 PM

I was charged for disobey sign (no left turn) in a winter noon time around Bay/Edward (the prosecutor/judge said it to be a Absolute liability offences but disobey sign is actually a strict liability offence, right? And I found this: For example, if you made an illegal left-turn where there were signs clearly marking this fact, saying you didn't know or didn't see the sign will not save you. However, if the sign was physically not present (removed or obscured), then the fact that the sign was not present/clear could save you from being convicted.. does weather condition can be the reason??) I went to court (my original date) yesterday and didn’t get the trial…

Officer’s notes:
Page one:
2009/01/xx Thursday
w/ 7xx8 D63xx (this is another officer)
Light flurries all day after noonish – 8ish, road slippery, visibility good, check signs OTW – A OK, could see them from setup SE, SW, NW: no left turn 7am-7pm Mon-Fri, >100m from Elm. Setup parked on west curb of west bound 30m from east of east curb of Bay St. clear view – only purpose video used. Park cars along south curb. pickup van park in front of us temporarily then small cars on/off – never obstructed view of intersection and around intersection. All stopped along south curb erar underground entrance. All windshields were clear unless stated on all cars. We took down abs(?) at 4:20pm due to heavier snow now & slippery road conditions. Flurries stopped xxx 1700 on G/P now.

Page two:
WM black lane(?) xxx (unrecognizable) 8 second delay left turn sig on VP

Detail one:
The judge asked me directly (before trial, they are trying to talk me out of trial, which they consider waste of their time) that “did you make the turn or not” at that point I quoted “human right of on one should be forced to test against himself” (Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms 11(c) and 13 )but the judge said he didn’t want to hear about human right in this court (non criminal charge) and repeated twice the same question, which I responded at the end that I refused to answer it, and one time the judge threaten that I showed disrespect to court and he could put me to jail. And he then moved on to give me a new court date which is 3 days later even with my objection that I won’t be available that day (well, now I have to, as he said the trial will go on regardless)

Question:

Was he fair? Does the 11(c) and 13 or 11(b) apply to traffic violation (not criminal case)
Did I have the right to not answer the judge’s question (not prosecutor’s question) like that?
What can I use from this for my next trial?
Can I ask for another court date when I do show up on the day the judge dictated (which is now 2 days later) and the fact was I was denied trial on my original court date bcs the uncalm judge refused (or couldn’t, as he asked me that question) to proceed with trial although all parties were ready, if I ask, what are the reasons I can quote?
can I say I was suffered being treated with prejudice from previous judge and if so, what chapter right section I should quote on and what effect it might be?

Detail two:
I asked and received disclosure however the writing is like chicken scratch and I cannot be sure what I didn’t recognize, so I asked for a typed version, which I never received, when I point it out in court, the judge said the police doesn’t even need to provide his note and the officer’s copy of the ticket is good enough, and when I say I did received the notes but it is not fully recognizable, the judge said that is ALL I can get, nothing else.

Question:

Did he deny my rights to be informed about evidence against me and in a not-fully-understandable format?
What can I use from this for my next trial
Can I motion to A) dismiss the case as no typed copy being given, or B) insist for a typed copy and have it ready within 8 months from Jan xx, which is 1.5 months away? (if motion allowed and the new court date being over 8 months – assuming the cop will provide typed version, can I then motion for 11b chapter rights being violated by next court date?)

Detail three:
In the note the officer indicated that he was working with another officer for that setup. When I challenged the other cop didn’t show up, the cop said he himself charged me and the other cop charged other driver, and only he is needed to present in court for my case.

Question: is that true? They setup video cameras (didn’t see him bring tape to court) and he deliberately disclosed that there was another officer.

Detail four:
The note actually was a summary for the whole day event (my charge was 12:40pm and the note was a summary from noon-ish to 8pm and he indicated they stop the activity around 5pm, so apparently the note was not recorded at scene. And has nothing specifically for my case, only in second page, there is vague mentioning there is writing like WM black xxxxx(unrecognizable) 8 seconds delay left turn signal on… but still nothing in detail about if that is my car or not.

Question: What can I use from this? Does notes wrote 7 hours afterwards can be used as evidence?

Detail five:
I took picture on the offence day through the windshield from driver’s seat in the lane that I turned left, the pictures show the SW sign and to be honest first you can hardly notice the sign, the intersection is 4x4 lane (2 lane on each direction for both roads) and there was no traffic light just poles on the corner of intersections. And it was quite dark even it was noonish and with the flurries and water drips on windshield, I honestly don’t think anyone can make the sign (7am-7pm Mon-Fri) out from almost 3 lane’s distance (2 lane on both sides or triangle, the third side is around 2.8 lane width) around 14 meters far (45 feet), in such a big intersection (like in Bay/Elm, there is full traffic light set should be used, when the no left turn sign being beside the red/green light, and hanging over the street, it is much easier to be recognized. prosecutor basically disregarded the fact that the signs were hard to recognize, esp. the small prints show the time in effect, even his own experience agree that it is hard.

Question: How shall I present my concern around signs not clearly displayed in that particular weather/light conditions? That might be my only real argument due to the fact that the signs ARE there and regardless you can see it or not, making left turn during forbidden time is an offence…

canadian charter of rights and freedom:

11.Any person charged with an offence has the right
(a) to be informed without unreasonable delay of the specific offence;
(b) to be tried within a reasonable time;
(c) not to be compelled to be a witness in proceedings against that person in respect of the offence;
(d) to be presumed innocent until proven guilty according to law in a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal;
(e) not to be denied reasonable bail without just cause;
(f) except in the case of an offence under military law tried before a military tribunal, to the benefit of trial by jury where the maximum punishment for the offence is imprisonment for five years or a more severe punishment;
(g) not to be found guilty on account of any act or omission unless, at the time of the act or omission, it constituted an offence under Canadian or international law or was criminal according to the general principles of law recognized by the community of nations;
(h) if finally acquitted of the offence, not to be tried for it again and, if finally found guilty and punished for the offence, not to be tried or punished for it again; and
(i) if found guilty of the offence and if the punishment for the offence has been varied between the time of commission and the time of sentencing, to the benefit of the lesser punishment.

Self-crimination
13.A witness who testifies in any proceedings has the right not to have any incriminating evidence so given used to incriminate that witness in any other proceedings, except in a prosecution for perjury or for the giving of contradictory evidence.

**gnatwest** · 08-12-2009, 01:23 PM

Opinion Only:

Your photograph should provide evidence that the sign was not clearly visible.

A Crown might give you trouble about wasting time etc. But a JP should never do that.

If you are convicted anyway I would say you have a high hope for appeal. In that case I would consider hiring a pro. General consesus on this forum is to use Redline www.charged.ca I have no experience with them but they do seem to be highly recommended.

Redline would then order all the transcripts of your proceedings and be able to win on appeal.

**zhulin_can** · 08-19-2009, 12:06 AM

Hi all that interested:

on last Friday my case was once again requested by prosecutor to be postponed to November.

have a couple of questions now:
1. I heard the R v Meyer case (French language service act - bi-lingual defence) was appealed and overturned? is it true? who can provide the case for this appeal?

2. the prosecutors/some cops are all aware of the appeal (if it is true) and if you use that in court, I am sure they will say the case was over turned later

3. for HTA charges that are signs related, e.g. 182(2), the HTA indicated that The Lieutenant Governor in Council may make regulations to effect the signs, so suppose prosecutor has to proved the copy of the by-law (that shows the left turn sign was legally erected there), but the prosecutor said they never need to provide that (she mentioned R v Clark (1974), R v McLaren(1981) and R v Margetis (198

for a speed sign that "proof of the erection of the signs consitituted prima facie proof of complaince with the regulation, the Crown was not required to prove in addition the by-law setting the speed limit in order for the court to register a conviction" what is your interpretation to this? do they need to provide the by-law or not?

4. when negotiating to a municipal by-law infraction charge v.s. a HTA charge, she showed me that some municipal by-law offence do have demerit points! I am wondering if someone knows that if a municipal by-law offece with demerit points will go into driving record (thus affect incurance) or not

5. anyone can suggest a "close enough match" municipal by-law infraction that can be the substituion of HTA 182(2) charge and carry NO demerit points? so I can negotiate a bargain next time?

6. in light of not all JP will honor "French Language Service Act" (BTW, this is unbelievable, the JP doesn't 'care' about this law published by this very province and I heard JP said in court to an agent:''I don't care about what Attorney General" said, when the agent was trying to argue the illegal-color/sized the sign not being compliant with Attorney General's describe). I asked for French trial in my next trial, but prosecutor objected by saying French trial is only for people who speak french, can someone confirm whether or not it is the case? she said I asked for English trial with translation service (to my mother language) and now asking for French trial with translation service (from French to my mother language) is abusing the system, (actually I knew she was trying to cut me off by avoiding me having a French speaking JP to trial my case in refering to French Language Service Act, but of course she was not saying that but accusing me abusing the system). when I was trying to object, JP didn't allow and asked/confirmed me do not speak French at that time, and went ahead denied my French trial rights.

7. the two delayed of my trial will now bring my case over 8 months, and none of the delay was caused by me, I was just asking for full disclosure and the prosecutor keep throwing dirt on my by suggesting to JP that I was trouble maker and would take long hours in court to be trialed, and no surprise my case were always called at the end of the session when only "not-guilty" people were left behind. so they never had the time to trial me although every time I was ready. can I quote 11(b) right to motion for a stay next time?

Thank all.

**Rob MacLennan** · 08-19-2009, 07:44 AM

The option to have a trial in French is so that you can adequately defend yourself. If you have shown that you can adequately defend yourself in English and had not previously made such a request, then that would be a valid reason to deny your request. It would appear that you were only attempting a delaying tactic, using your functional knowledge of another language as an excuse.

You could try submitting for 11b based on the delay and the number of times you've been recalled causing a hardship, but my gut tells me that you'll fail. The general rule in the GTA these days is 14+ months, but there is no hard and fast number. It's always worth a try.

In the past, sign clutter has been successfully used to defend against a variety of charges, from parking tickets to moving violations. If the sign isn't clearly visible, then it's unenforceable.

Bylaw infractions that are functionally similar to HTA infractions do carry demerit points and will appear on your record.

If the disclosure is illegible, make a request that you be given copies that can be understood. Disclosure that you can't read is no disclosure. If you fail to make an additional request then by your silence you are stating that the disclosure was acceptable.

**Blooton** · 08-19-2009, 08:37 AM

I have no legal expertise, but if you say you saw the no left turn sign, but could not read the 7-7 time restrictions because of weather, would you not consider it a no left turn at ALL times ?

**GSPLover** · 08-19-2009, 09:17 AM

Did you turn left?

**Rob MacLennan** · 08-19-2009, 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by Blooton

I have no legal expertise, but if you say you saw the no left turn sign, but could not read the 7-7 time restrictions because of weather, would you not consider it a no left turn at ALL times ?

That would be correct.