rant ... for gm to survive...

[invictus43]

For real??

Jeeze, not a good omen!!!

Hmmm..I'm pretty sure we're past the omen stage..

[Diesel]

I'm really starting to think they should not get a penny of government (our) money.

Today Chrysler announces that they cannot survive here without a bailout, and they will move to St. Louis without it. Thanks for the threat rather than a plea, see ya.

Next I hear a clip from Ken of the CAW saying 87% of their members okayed the recent contract (that the gov't already said doesn't cut deep enough), and stated "There, we have done our part and made the concessions , now the government must do it's part".

There's that sense of entitlement again... since when the government MUST help out these sacred auto workers?

People are losing jobs in almost every industry right now, why is it only the auto industry should be bailed out? What makes them so damn special?

[AdRath]

People are losing jobs in almost every industry right now, why is it only the auto industry should be bailed out? What makes them so damn special?

I agree. The whole argument that 'they employ the most people' is bogus because they are also asking for the most cash for bailout. It would be interesting to figure out the % of bailout cash per job then compare that to other businesses who would obviously need far less cash to survive but have less workers.

The CAW would get far more support if they lost their sense of entitlement. I think its odd that they didn't even get 90% of the workers to vote yes. So more than 10% of their workers think they deserve more when the reality is they would be out of work? give me a break. The concessions weren't even that deep. It almost made them level with other industries doing the same type of unskilled labour. I guess when you have been told your special for so long its hard to think of yourself like one of the rest of ontario workers who are in jeopardy of losing their jobs.

[z31tt]

It makes me wonder what go through some people's heads. Do you take a pay cut and keep your job or do you think you shouldn't have to take a pay cut, lose your job, and start looking for a job with no marketable skills in a market with 100,000 people like you? I support a bailout for these companies but these union guys are starting to make me think otherwise. The 10%+ that voted no are the biggest dolts. What do they want, a raise? Get real...

[invictus43]

You know, it really isn't correct to lay it all at the feet of the line workers. The companies, top down, are in poor shape. Management, design, finance..nobody escapes. Everybody has to do their part. I'm sure a lot of their white-collar workforce has been laid-off or terminated. Upper mgmt has taken pay cuts. There's a very real chance that they won't have jobs. They are facing extinction. I know they feel entitled and don't want to give anything back, but that is the reality they are facing. It sucks, but that's life. I know the pro-labour guys are saying the salary gap won't make a difference but it will. It might not save them..but it's part of the solution. To think otherwise is ignorant bliss.

[bitzz]

It was announced yesterday that Ford is cutting the hourly rate for line workers to $55/hr. Toyota gets $48. Ford will save $370million this year.

I don't know if it is true but I am under the impression that the federal government guaranteed CAW's pensions in the 80's.
That would put a different spin on things wouldn't it?

[AdRath]

I don't know if it is true but I am under the impression that the federal government guaranteed CAW's pensions in the 80's.
That would put a different spin on things wouldn't it?

Yes that would be a different spin if that was the case then the government should honour that. Although it is dumb that they would honour CAW's pensions when they can't even guarentee that CPP will be around when I retire. The CAW had it too good for too long and reality is a cold hard *****.

[allmotormark]

It makes me wonder what go through some people's heads. Do you take a pay cut and keep your job or do you think you shouldn't have to take a pay cut, lose your job, and start looking for a job with no marketable skills in a market with 100,000 people like you? I support a bailout for these companies but these union guys are starting to make me think otherwise. The 10%+ that voted no are the biggest dolts. What do they want, a raise? Get real...

7% of every car made there is workers pay , you think if they worked for free the 7% would save the company , i think not.....pay cut or no pay cut the people up top need the pay cut

[Speedway]

On guy from the University of Toronto was chastized for commenting the same 7 percent.. He doubled back today and stated yes, it was more closer to 37%...

7% of every car made there is workers pay , you think if they worked for free the 7% would save the company , i think not.....pay cut or no pay cut the people up top need the pay cut

[invictus43]

7% of every car made there is workers pay , you think if they worked for free the 7% would save the company , i think not.....pay cut or no pay cut the people up top need the pay cut

So better to give up and lose your job? That's a good philosophy. And it's not that simple. It's not a case of this percentage erasing their deficit. And it's not just hourly wage, it's benefit costs, pension obligations. Additionally, it's not just about money off the top, it's about reinvesting that money into better production methods, more R&D, better quality. As I say, it's not JUST the line workers..it's the whole structure. Poor management, finance, long-term planning..

And I have to tell you, I've worked with Ford engineering and mangement in the past..when times were good, I've never met a more arrogant bunch of S.O.B's in all my life. Frankly, I think this looks good on them. Even Microsoft has more humility than they did.

[allmotormark]

So better to give up and lose your job? That's a good philosophy. And it's not that simple. It's not a case of this percentage erasing their deficit. And it's not just hourly wage, it's benefit costs, pension obligations. Additionally, it's not just about money off the top, it's about reinvesting that money into better production methods, more R&D, better quality. As I say, it's not JUST the line workers..it's the whole structure. Poor management, finance, long-term planning..

And I have to tell you, I've worked with Ford engineering and mangement in the past..when times were good, I've never met a more arrogant bunch of S.O.B's in all my life. Frankly, I think this looks good on them. Even Microsoft has more humility than they did.

hey i think they get paid too much also trust me, but my point is the line workers wage is not going to save the company, the guys making millions and millions of dollars even when supposedly they are loosing, they are the ones people should be talking to.

[Speedway]

Do the math chuckles,, It WILL indeed. A 20 dollar cut (Pension, medical, rubntugs) , as in the states would allow, over 7K employees, $1,120,000 per DAY !!!!!!! The idiotic members can not even run simple math. Wouldnt even effect thier TAKE-HOME!!!!!!!

hey i think they get paid too much also trust me, but my point is the line workers wage is not going to save the company, the guys making millions and millions of dollars even when supposedly they are loosing, they are the ones people should be talking to.

[allmotormark]

hey the company is going down if you can't sell cars , free labour isn't going to help, all the cuts in the world is not going to help

[AdRath]

hey the company is going down if you can't sell cars , free labour isn't going to help, all the cuts in the world is not going to help

They are selling cars... just not enough to pay for the massivly bloated infrastruture they have now. Reducing the costs of labour is a huge part of that. Also producing vehicles people want to buy is another large part.

If just selling cars was the only issue then wouldn't the bailout money better go to each and every person to buy a new car? Of course only ones made in ontario that are fuel efficient. I'll take a RAV4 thank you.

I'm waiting for the Union and the big 3 to suggest cancelling public transit as a way to force people to buy new cars.

[Car2Slo]

I was think on my drive in, what would I do if I was a head of GM and had to keep GM alive. If allowed an out of the box thinking and a chance to change it into a new company;

- Get rid of everything, except the market name, branding and design concepts (engineers, designers, thinkers)
- make the company into an Apple like, idea company, not manufacturing.
- Sell the manufacturing buildings and plants to the competitors
- get rid of manufacturing workers or better yet negotiate with competitors to hire your top people them (especially if they need to increase their business because of demand).
- sell most brands off to other companies to use as rebranding on any product (I.e. Hummer can become a luggage manufacturer if it wants)
- Negotiate with #2, Honda, if Toyota is number one, or if I'm wrong the number 2 or 3 car manufacturers, to OUTSOURCE the manufacturing of your base cars.
- Let them know that combined you can make them #1.
- Give your new manufacturing partners access to your dealerships, marketing teams, top builders (for a cost, profit on the supply of base cars).
- reskin their products to be your products (i.e. Honda Civic, reskinned and sold as a GM)
- let your competitors leaverage your knowledge and supplier contacts for a % of profits (become a middle service provider)
- Sell the outsourcing concept by negotiating Import taxes, pricing and levys, instead of taking a bailout from the government.
- Let the consumer know what you're doing. Wouldn't you buy a Honda Civic from GM if it was competively priced, easy to service and backed by both Honda and GM dealers? (Honda should be happy they're selling more).
- Use your branding to bring your partners to the next level. Cadillac, GMC tough, Corvette, etc merged to Acura, Honda or a new truck line, and market you're bread and butter; long history in the US, proliferation through Asian market.

Basically think out of the box and evolve.

Of course just my 2cents to give me something to do while I'm sitting in T.O. Traffic.

[twinn]

Did you guys see what Chrysler was asking for last night on TV?

They want the government to forgive 100's of millions in taxes

They want 2.3 BILLION dollars

They want their workers to take a 25% wage cut


The way this plays out is going to talked about in economic classes for many years.

IMO, Chrysler wants out of Canada and is trying to put the blame on the government instead of themselves. We all know the CAW workers are not going to give into a wage cut, never mind the gov't not giving them money.

IMO, GM agreed to the CAW terms becase they know its only a matter of time before they go bankrupt and they won't have to honour their terms anyway.

It looks like the big players are starting to play hardball,

http://www.nationalpost.com/rss/story.html?id=1357080

Magna said it would close this plant in Syracuse because the workers rejected their offer, looks like unions went back on all fours and now it might stay open. Want to bet that this settlement offer is worse then the one that was originally offered.

[rockjock]

Manufacturing cars is a business. If the business can't survive a downturn because it either hasn't managed it's balance sheet or people don't buy their product, then it should die. The manufacturers that survive will be the ones that sell the best product and enjoy demand for their product, because there will always be a market for transportation. Survivors can then export into the vaccum. The North American manufacturers have to cope with the circumstances and some will in some form. The alternative, State sponsored design manufacturing, is the Trabant and Lada.