No Big Three Bailout.

[Bandit Bill]

Is this a debate on building crappy products? Cuz they are everywhere I was under the impression they were failing because they can't run the business properly. Or successfully, but you want to go with the product debate big 3 make crap anyways.

Chicken vs the Egg argument.

Are the Detroit three failing because of bad business practices, or crappy products? Did the business leadership allow mis-marketed crap to leave the line year out year in, or did the crap product influence sales and erode market share?

Seems the two are interconnected to me.. people wouldn't have left the traditional detroit three for greener pastures in droves like they did, going to the Japanese four as well as the Korean upstarts, if things were hunky-dory in Detroit with either the product, or the management practices such as they were/are. We wouldn't be where we are today, without the cumulative damage to the domestic market share from either of the two factors in question.

[Yorkee]

I can understand all the hating and bashing on union. From a finical standpoint, it come down to which route cost more.

Bailout -> cost 15bil

let them fail -> ch11. big 3 can write off all the union agreement and debt and become we can see it become profitable again. But end up its the government taking care of the mess. Which end up come put of taxpayer pocket again.

The real debate for US is rather bailout cost more or taking care of big3 mess after ch11 cost more.


As far as quality go, its a long long term investment. it takes 10 year before anyone can tell their car last or not. Quality is part of the game but not the whole thing. poor quality car can sell as long as its the right price. eg: Model T

[caboose483]

Believe what you will - i've lived with Domestic manufactered POS's for going on 20 years, and can attest to the experience of piss poor engineering, quality control, and craptastic designs from GM, Ford and Chrysler - first hand.

As i quote my father in frustration, waiting to pick up a car with yet another massive repair bill, having driven him over to pick it up .. 'i've paid for my car all over again on the repair installment plan'.

My last GMC, I paid out 2x in repairs, the original purchase price, and had the vehicle die before it reached 225,000 kms.

None of the domestic market cars that myself or my family have owned or experienced, were abused in any way, shape or form.. in fact they were maintained to spec, and driven with longevity in mind. They haven't been good experiences.

It doesn't really matter if GM/Ford/Chrysler are pulling up their socks on quality now - they have been asleep at the switch for 30 years. It's a too little, too late situation as far as i am concerned.

Absolute rubbish. I've not first hand-experienced the so-called 'quality improvements' in the detroit three that some espouse - i've seen quite the opposite in fact.

Im not talking about the last 20 years. I'm talking about the alst 5-8 years.

Yah in the 80's and 90's, the north american cars were pretty bad. They put themselves in a hole they had to get out of. Since about 2000 they've made up a lot of ground on the Japanese in terms of quality and design and in some cases even surpassed Japanese companies that are known for quality. And yet millions of people share your attitude and trying to convince them otherwise is like arguing wtih a retarded parrot.

What were the vehicles you owned? Some cars, both Japanese and American, are known for being unreliable.

[caboose483]

I can understand all the hating and bashing on union. From a finical standpoint, it come down to which route cost more.

Bailout -> cost 15bil

let them fail -> ch11. big 3 can write off all the union agreement and debt and become we can see it become profitable again. But end up its the government taking care of the mess. Which end up come put of taxpayer pocket again.

The real debate for US is rather bailout cost more or taking care of big3 mess after ch11 cost more.


As far as quality go, its a long long term investment. it takes 10 year before anyone can tell their car last or not. Quality is part of the game but not the whole thing. poor quality car can sell as long as its the right price. eg: Model T

The big there are "too big to file Chapter 11" so that's not an option. Otherwise i think that's what they'd be doing.

[caboose483]

I have been driving my 99 Acura TL ever since we got it in 1998. I have had no issues. Only thing that died on me was the battery after 7 years of use. Got it replace. Car is running like the day we got it. And the japanese design makes it easy to fix, I have replaced alot of worn parts myself. Saved alot of $$$. We have an older 1st gen TL...that thing won't die even leaving it out in the cold and snow of last year.

We have gone through 2 GM cars back in the 80's in a span of 8 years. They were horrible.

Hondas are well built cars. But i disagree with the "Japanese design being easy to work on".

The basics like brakes and suspension parts dont differ a great deal from car to car. I don't think Japanese cars are much easier to work on these parts than any other car. I've had some Jap cars and some American cars and i've found them all relatively easy to work on. In my experience, the only real difference is that its harder to find aftermarket parts for the Jap cars that don't cost a fortune.

Complicated expensive stuff is different though. Timing belts, water pumps, transmission work, etc on any DOHC FWD car is going to be a lot of work.... no matter who designed it.

[wmcphee89]

Quote

And yet millions of people share your attitude and trying to convince them otherwise is like arguing wtih a retarded parrot


Ha ha ha ha nicely played

[caboose483]

Here's the new ad from the big 3

Wow the Windstar is a pretty crappy van... but Ford hasn't built it in quite a while now, and when they did they sold thousands upon thousands of them.... sooo... ????

[GP_RZ]

The big there are "too big to file Chapter 11" so that's not an option. Otherwise i think that's what they'd be doing.

Bankruptcy lawyers?


http://money.cnn.com/2008/12/11/news...ion=2008121119

[Andrew978]

One point people always overlook,

If the car was more affordable for the piece of hit it is, would it be a better car say 5 grand less, or more ? I think the GM car is far over priced for the crap it is, its not a bargin to buy them, if in tern the car was priced accordingly it would be put into a different catagory. But it never will be because of how well the company compensated the caw members for they're service, so well that it has financially cripped that company to the point that it no longer is competetive for the market its cars are in and in times of economic downfalls the company can not support its self.

Food for thought

take into account that the foreign automakers are able to lower their prices because of a devalued yen

[Andrew978]

I can understand all the hating and bashing on union. From a finical standpoint, it come down to which route cost more.

Bailout -> cost 15bil

let them fail -> ch11. big 3 can write off all the union agreement and debt and become we can see it become profitable again. But end up its the government taking care of the mess. Which end up come put of taxpayer pocket again.

its not so easy. just look at teh delphi bankruptcy. they've been fighting to get out of it for 3 years, but haven't' been able to get the funding. its far smaller then a GM bankruptcy and during most of it there wasn't a credit crunch as there is now

[Yorkee]

Here's the new ad from the big 3

and this classic

[Yorkee]

its not so easy. just look at teh delphi bankruptcy. they've been fighting to get out of it for 3 years, but haven't' been able to get the funding. its far smaller then a GM bankruptcy and during most of it there wasn't a credit crunch as there is now

Delphi is the 2nd tier of big3. Although they are in bankruptcy, they has been badly affected by the whole auto scene...

My point is that its not about "punishing" or "giving" the big3 is fair or not. The bailout decision should be based on minimal damage to the country as a whole... I believe we are too small to see the affect of either decision

[twinn]

Delphi is the 2nd tier of big3. Although they are in bankruptcy, they has been badly affected by the whole auto scene...

I still remeber the Delphi bankruptcy. They went to the unions and said that they can pay there workers $12-14/hour to avoid bankcruptcy. The unions told them were to go and how to get there, so they went under.

The unions have to understand that the free market sets labor rates and not them. The talk about only 7% of their wage going to total cost of the car is misleading. 7% is only the hourly wage, it does not factor into pensions/benefits/lay off pay etc...

Sometimes I wish common sense would prevail, most CAW guys make $30 bucks an hour, its not like they are going to starve on $20 bucks?

Either way with or without a bailout the big 3 are finished. People are just not willing to make a 4-5 year commitement of $300-400 a month on a new car purchase. The car makers have to cut 30-40% of their production and that means serious job losses either way.

I wish that these unions and pro bailout fools would learn that no matter how much $ the banks or government print or give to companies/banks, they can not force people to spend.
no spending on consumer goods = job losses

[eastcoast_gsx]

http://business.theglobeandmail.com/.../Business/home

Hows this for a threat.

[caboose483]

http://business.theglobeandmail.com/.../Business/home

Hows this for a threat.

WOW! thats quite a threat!

[eastcoast_gsx]

WOW! thats quite a threat!

I love how the union says they are trying to scapegoat the workers... no pal, they are not happy with the union brass... not the workers, it's you guys that pretend to speak for all of them... and maybe you do, but you have to be honest with YOURSELVES... and THE WORKERS... You have ZERO leverage at this juncture, why act like you do??

[wmcphee89]

I love how the union says they are trying to scapegoat,
all while because of the agreement, they have to give notice to a scheduled time off so they will all be getting paid for the time off, in GMs case anyways, while they're company continues to bleed.

[Bandit Bill]

Im not talking about the last 20 years. I'm talking about the alst 5-8 years.

Yah in the 80's and 90's, the north american cars were pretty bad. They put themselves in a hole they had to get out of. Since about 2000 they've made up a lot of ground on the Japanese in terms of quality and design and in some cases even surpassed Japanese companies that are known for quality. And yet millions of people share your attitude and trying to convince them otherwise is like arguing wtih a retarded parrot.

What were the vehicles you owned? Some cars, both Japanese and American, are known for being unreliable.

1988 Ford F150
1997 GMC Safari 2wd
1997 GMC Jimmy 2wd
1997 Dodge Caravan
2002 Chrysler PT Cruiser
2007 Dodge Caravan

and myriad others in the extended family. We aren't a family that replaces vehicles every 2-3 years, or even 5 years.. they get bought, and driven into the ground at end of service usefullness. As such, the expectation has always been that with proper maintenance they should last.. most haven't.

Once fooled, shame on you. Twice fooled, shame on me. For the majority of the family, there isn't a third time. The chances were used up, no matter the claims on quality improvement in the past few years. We won't be around to see it, to believe it.

We've seen the Detroit 3's 'engineering' at work - fuel pumps submerged into gas tanks, motors needing to be dropped to service spark plugs etc etc.. it's simply bad all the way around in our general experience.

[Diesel]

I think the production of the big three cars in Canada is going to suffer very badly no matter what happens in the US.

1. Obviously if the bailout doesn't happen and bankruptcy is declared, then a lot will be lost here.

2. If a bailout is approved it is very likely that the US gov't could stipulate that the big 3 repatriate their production in order to maximize American jobs. Since something like 85% of our auto production is for the US market, then the plants here will still be greatly affected - whether or not a bailout comes from our gov't.

All in all... tougher times are coming.

One sad thing about recessions... is that in the past a good way for a country to pull out of one was to go to war... so who do you figure USA will attack next? Iran?

[caboose483]

1988 Ford F150
1997 GMC Safari 2wd
1997 GMC Jimmy 2wd
1997 Dodge Caravan
2002 Chrysler PT Cruiser
2007 Dodge Caravan

and myriad others in the extended family. We aren't a family that replaces vehicles every 2-3 years, or even 5 years.. they get bought, and driven into the ground at end of service usefullness. As such, the expectation has always been that with proper maintenance they should last.. most haven't.

Once fooled, shame on you. Twice fooled, shame on me. For the majority of the family, there isn't a third time. The chances were used up, no matter the claims on quality improvement in the past few years. We won't be around to see it, to believe it.

We've seen the Detroit 3's 'engineering' at work - fuel pumps submerged into gas tanks, motors needing to be dropped to service spark plugs etc etc.. it's simply bad all the way around in our general experience.

You did not have good luck with the Safari or Jimmy? We've had two Safari's through my family and an S10 (essentially the same as a Jimmy) and the worst thing we ever had happen was a blown oil line on one of the Safari's and a worn out idler arm. *shrug*

I wont argue against the PT or the Caravan's being pieces of crap. LOL

Are the Japanese FWD 6-cylinders any easier for servicing the rear bank? I've only ever had Japanese 4-bangers.