Tire Warmers?

[john bickle]

++major


It sounds like casing damage occurs due to the difference between the tread and core temps, causing some de-lamination?

Any wisdom on common street/track tires (Corsa II, 2Ct, BT-016) and if those constructions/compounds can better tolerate non-warmer heat/cool differentials and cycles?

Will taking wheel/rim temps give a better indication of core temps? Perhaps useful when combined with hot pressure readings?

Let's qualify all this. If you are not hard on it and doing track days in the green group,, no worries. You level of aggression is not going to be a problem yet.
Ambient air temp is a big factor. Cold tearing is where you loose the rubber and the premature break down of the carcass is really getting deep.
Really, if you don't notice it it's not a problem,! Most guys that have the ability to accumlilate data are recording changes,,, so you should feel something.
Tires are tires. Rubber and steel. How they are put together differentiates them from one another. The reality is they all like to be warm.
You can make all tires work as well as you can with out warmers. But they will heat cycle faster and that is where you most damage occurs. The tire will still work, it just wears quicker.
Now that is the technical aspect,, reality may be that you are easy on tires carry good corner speed and easy out. So how you ride may be easier on the tire.
So I don't mean to alarm people and scare them into buying warmers. Warmers are a step in the evolution you are ready to accept or not.

And like many things in this sport some people defy the norm,
and it works fine!

John

[jocko13]

with stock tires on the zx10? with race tires people argue they will last longer. I have never experimented with it, I just replace em after a couple days. Although a nice track/street hybrid tire looks like a good compromise for performance and longetivity.
I've been tempted to try the warmers, but half the time I get to pit out only to wait 5 to 10 minutes by which time the majority of heat would be gone anyway.

My ZX10 is just a street bike, I use a ZX6RR for the track, I used Pirelli's last year but I'm going to try Dunlop next year.

[geoff-9]

john, i heard on the WERA board that with pirellis you shoud use digital warmers and turn them down to 150F as the standard say chickenhawks which run at 180F are way too hot for pirellis.

how true is that.

[Grimmy]

Unfortunately for the world of racing globally, not everyone has heard of John Bickle or Bickle tire warmers. Regardless, here in Canada, one would find almost every paddock uses the Bickle warmers. I strongly recommend them, as my previous set I bought used off Tyler Kennedy after years of service to him, and they kept going for another 2 years after that with me! I finally broke down and bought a brand new set from Bickle which have all the latest updates that my old ones did not have anymore.

Do warmers work? Yep. Example? At a trackday this last summer, I got ready with my friends (who do not use tire warmers) and we went out onto the track. I let my friends get on track first and I followed. Come turn one, as my tires were already warmed I braked at my normal braking marker, passed all 3 or 4 guys, and went onto the next section. A few turns later I noted that no one was behind me. Point is, with warmed tires, one can get going closer to top pace during lap one, rather than using a lap or two just getting up to temperature.

I once asked a question of a very successful racer during some time in Europe. I asked Ian Simpson, how long does he take to make sure his tires are warmed? He answered pointedly: Turn 1. With Bickle warmers, this statement stands true. My warm up laps during a race weekend are usually only barely slower than a race pace lap, and that comes with confidence in your grip and if your tires are up to temperature.

[murf]

My ZX10 is just a street bike, I use a ZX6RR for the track, I used Pirelli's last year but I'm going to try Dunlop next year.

which Pirelli, and which dunlops?

[murf]

Do warmers work? Yep. Example? At a trackday this last summer, I got ready with my friends (who do not use tire warmers) and we went out onto the track. I let my friends get on track first and I followed. Come turn one, as my tires were already warmed I braked at my normal braking marker, passed all 3 or 4 guys, and went onto the next section. A few turns later I noted that no one was behind me. Point is, with warmed tires, one can get going closer to top pace during lap one, rather than using a lap or two just getting up to temperature.

.

Should we really be using this as a good example for people with less experience? The first thing trackday organizers say at riders meetings is that it's NOT a race, and take a lap or two to warm up. Of those 3 or 4 guys how many were just taking it easy? Even before a race isn't there a lap or two of warmup?

[eastcoast_gsx]

Should we really be using this as a good example for people with less experience? The first thing trackday organizers say at riders meetings is that it's NOT a race, and take a lap or two to warm up. Of those 3 or 4 guys how many were just taking it easy? Even before a race isn't there a lap or two of warmup?

Give the poor guy a break... he needs his ego stroked every now and then, ask him what happens 4 laps later....

[john bickle]

john, i heard on the WERA board that with pirellis you shoud use digital warmers and turn them down to 150F as the standard say chickenhawks which run at 180F are way too hot for pirellis.

how true is that.

No truth at all!
Oh man, here we go!
Pirellis,,,,!
Okay the World Superbike Tire technicians want 80-85 C as you go down pit lane for your out lap!
We even ,with a factory team I won't mention,, addressed looking into 100c for the Qualifier tire,, but with further investigations we decuded that it would be too hot on an average day.
Now why do people say 150 F,, becasue they are too lazy to check the hot tire pressure.
If you want this tire to work and work right you "Have to" set it by hot tire pressure.
The reason you use programmables is not to set it back in temp.
Here is what you do, if you are fast. Set your pressure's cold where you think the tire may run. Put your warmers on to say 78 C. When they get up to temp, check the pressure ,,adjust it while hot. Do a session check your hot tire pressure and temperature right as you come off the track.
So say it's running a pound higher then recommended, go back to your pits, put the warmers on at the temperature they came off the track and adjust your tire pressure.
So next time you go to that track you can probable set the tire hot in the pits from your notes.
Now, if you're lazy or have not got the tools. Set the warmers cooler. The pressure will not be as high when you enter the track. So say it takes 15 laps to build the temnperature, you come off in 10 you never see what happens. You are not running the tire right just delaying the time it takes so you never see the problem. Some people assume the tire is too hot which maybe it is becasue the pressure is low, or too high and it spins. So setting it lower will delay that problem,,,, but it doesn't get rid of it.
The Pirelli has a very soft carcass and the air pressure dictates how that carcass performs,, get it wrong and its a long session.
So to be fair to Pirelli's you need to set the pressure hot.

But most factory teams are in the high 70's Celcius.
And they work!

[mobius]

what should be the average pressure difference on a DOT race tire between cold and hot off the warmers at the 80C that they want?

thanks
marcos

[murf]

Give the poor guy a break... he needs his ego stroked every now and then, ask him what happens 4 laps later....

will do

[john bickle]

what should be the average pressure difference on a DOT race tire between cold and hot off the warmers at the 80C that they want?

thanks
marcos

Can't really answer that as it changes per track, per rider ,per set up, per weather conditions. It is directly related to an individual. Once you go hot you don't worry about cold. Use one or the other. In the past it was 10% but that again can change per conditions.

[jocko13]

which Pirelli, and which dunlops?

Pirelli Diablo Supercorsa, they served me well last year, they came with the bike I bought, since it was my first year I was not that aggressive and they lasted me for 6 track days.

I will be buying my tyres from Pro6 for next year, they sell Dunlop so that is what I will use, I plan on getting more aggressive next year and I trust Joe @ Pro6 will steer me in the right tyre choosing direction, however if you have any input it is always welcome.

Thanks for all the good advise, it really helps us rookies

[Grimmy]

Should we really be using this as a good example for people with less experience? The first thing trackday organizers say at riders meetings is that it's NOT a race, and take a lap or two to warm up. Of those 3 or 4 guys how many were just taking it easy? Even before a race isn't there a lap or two of warmup?

Very true murf, there is a warm up lap, and many track day organizers say that the day is not a "race". I agree. But I do like to have fun.

However, you overlooked the point of the post - I have confidence in the grip of my tires. I can go from turn 1 at speed - because of tire warmers.

[john bickle]

I will be buying my tyres from Pro6 for next year, they sell Dunlop so that is what I will use, I plan on getting more aggressive next year and I trust Joe @ Pro6 will steer me in the right tyre choosing direction,

You are in very good hands with Pro Six

[murf]

Very true murf, there is a warm up lap, and many track day organizers say that the day is not a "race". I agree. But I do like to have fun.

However, you overlooked the point of the post - I have confidence in the grip of my tires. I can go from turn 1 at speed - because of tire warmers.

Just take it easy on us slow.........I mean guys taking a warm up lap or three

[jocko13]

You are in very good hands with Pro Six

Thanks John for all your input on warmers.

I am going to purchase a set of bickle standard (this should be all I need) tyre warmers thru Tony @ bluestreak as I know him and trust him......also since it is his sons old bike I'm riding.

[john bickle]

Thanks John for all your input on warmers.

I am going to purchase a set of bickle standard (this should be all I need) tyre warmers thru Tony @ bluestreak as I know him and trust him......also since it is his sons old bike I'm riding.

That's all you need,,Tony is a good guy as well. Good people,good to see.

Hope we didn't mess up too many peoples heads.,
And questions are allways good,,keeps us working.

[kneedragger88]

Just want to put this out there. I know John quite well for.......ahem...... years. I live about a ten minute drive from his place. So if anyone out of the GTA needs to get stuff to or from John I dont mind being the taxi/mule. I am in the city daily as most of you know. Same for you Bic if you need to get anything into the city give me a shout.

[john bickle]

Just want to put this out there. I know John quite well for.......ahem...... years. I live about a ten minute drive from his place. So if anyone out of the GTA needs to get stuff to or from John I dont mind being the taxi/mule. I am in the city daily as most of you know. Same for you Bic if you need to get anything into the city give me a shout.

Awsome!
Thanks,

[john bickle]

Which tire warmers would you reccomend?

Or E-Bay a used set of ChickenHawk?

Thanx!

Something that wasn't touched on was used warmers.
I know everyone is on a budget of some sort. Buying used warmers is exactly like going to Vegas. Warmers are not something that last for ever. On average a National team will get 1.5 to 2 years with out servicing. Regional racers doing about two to three races a weekend 3-4 years. Track day riders may get 3-4 plus. But,, all that is qualified by how they are used and stored.
We use the same thermostates as KLS warmer out of Europe. We get about 100,000 cycles out of them. So they do wear out. That is the most replaced part on warmers and the cord.
So we only work on our own warmers and service them. So should you have to pursue used warmers,, be sure you can get them serviced in a timely fashion.

The hard part of this business is making them last. Because,,as I know,, when you are late for your session,,, we all get a little hurried.
Some don't even bother to take them off,,,,,


John