Reply With QuoteHave you done a season of track riding or are you new to trackdays?Originally Posted by jocko13
I am going to buy bickle for all the reasons mentioned.
My question is: being just a track day rider is the standard warmers all I need?
|
|
With our warmers you can run a set with a 1000watt Inverter style. Honda and Yamaha supply the best power. Some of the generic generators like Wal MArt or Canadian Tire sell have trouble with the start up power needed. As a point of referance Chicken Hawks take 1500 watts to power.
Yes the standard model has an 78C thermostat built in.
John
Have you done a season of track riding or are you new to trackdays?I am going to buy bickle for all the reasons mentioned.
My question is: being just a track day rider is the standard warmers all I need?
Do you recommend using your warmers with rain tires? If so which model of your warmers?
Oh Boy,,,
Okay,,, "If" you are a very,very experienced rider and you don't care how long your tires last,,,then use warmers as hot as you can. The goal is to get as much lead in two laps and then hope you have enough distance and tire left to finish the race at a slower pace. If you use warmers you will have to slow down. You will have to go as fast as you can out of the box.
Consider a tire warmer is really a pump designed to move water. So what do most riders do as soon as the track starts to dry out,,they look for water. You need water to keep a rain tire cool. If it is kept cool it will last longer. The only thing is when the sharp edges round off the effectivness is diminished.
So for the average guy with a tire budget,,, don't use warmers. Why. Becasue the first puddle you hit going from the pits to the track is going to take heat. Your tire will not last as long. Most guys go slow at first and then get faster in the rain. So by the time you figure on getting on it, you have no heat left. So any benefit is gone. You see Jordan sitting on the track with his crew and warmers on. He doesn't pay for his tires,so he wants warmers to get the whole shot. He can dial it back as the tire degrades, the crew chucks the tire after the race.
Basically using warmers your tire performances changes radically in a negative way. With out warmers the tire will generate the heat it needs or can naturally and it gets better as you do.
So to use warmers on any level is dependant on your ability. So be carefull.
Now, if you are told to use warmers your tire life will decrease tremendously so be aware.
If you need to put warmers on just to maintain the regular pattern of life, then do it for about 10 minutes and shut them off. Some people not using warmers is very much a mental thing.
But we do not recommned using warmers which is why we have a two position warmer and not three with a rain setting.
Last edited by john bickle; 11-30-2008 at 08:45 AM.
Yes I have done 1 season, shanny twice, calabogie 3 times and Mosport once.
I will be looking to increase that for 2009.
John,
Leaving the rain tire issue aside and assuming a "normal" summer trackday environment...
If I understand correctly, you feel warmers are most useful for riders who need or want the tires to be at operating temp for max grip in the first lap or two.
Using warmers will usually reduce tire life because the tires are softer with the extra heat and the presumption is the rider will be more aggressive earlier than without warmed tires.
Am I also correct in thinking unless a rider is aggressive enough to make the tires continue to generate heat, the tires will cool in a couple laps to a similar temperature that would have been generated without the warmers?
Would it be fair to say that under normal summer trackday conditions, using warmers is no substitute for understanding how to set proper inflation pressure to allow the tire to generate heat according to the rider's particular bike, tires, riding style and aggressiveness?
Thanks for taking the time to help us understand a very complex process.
Moderator
+1 on the Honda EU2000i generator. I use it with one set of warmers and it doesn't blink. It powers 2 sets easily.
Tire pressures should be checked twice cold and when the tires are hot. After I put the warmers on tire pressure goes up you will be suprised by how much. Not only you have to warm up your tires you should warm up the brakes also you don't want to find out you have no brakes on the first turn after a straightaway.
I should have mentioned the basic rule of thumb that tire pressures should increase approx. 10% from cold to hot. I guess what I'm looking for from John is what his experience indicates about when a rider would benefit most from using warmers. As in, rather than just slapping on warmers, would learning appropriate tire pressures and a little patience on the first lap (or two, depending on ambient temps) be more useful for the "average" trackday rider trying to get a handle on the available traction from a particular tire brand/model, riding style, etc?
Yes, disk brakes also require "warming", but according to Rossi, the best plan is to gently squeeze the brake well before the main application in each deceleration zone. While he doesn't specifically say so, it seems logical that this allows the rider to sense that the brakes are "there". (pads are not pushed back from wheel shake or bumps, and are warm enough to "work")
http://www.ebike-ridingtips.co.uk/vi...file=rossi.flv
with stock tires on the zx10? with race tires people argue they will last longer. I have never experimented with it, I just replace em after a couple days. Although a nice track/street hybrid tire looks like a good compromise for performance and longetivity.
I've been tempted to try the warmers, but half the time I get to pit out only to wait 5 to 10 minutes by which time the majority of heat would be gone anyway.
Last edited by murf; 11-30-2008 at 12:34 PM.
ofcourse you need to know what pressures you should be using, with or w/o warmers. I have used the 10% rule, although some of the newer tires are different and use a very low pressure.
even with warmers not to many guys go 100% right from the start. Its not a race, let yourself and the bike/tires warm up.
The average trackrider in the middle group doesn't even need race rubber, since they don't ride fast enough to keep the tire in its operating temps.....which for the rubber I use is 180-210 F.
Well, tires actually will last longer with warmers. If you go out without warmers and take a couple laps to get the tires warm and then get on it. The outside of the tire is warm, the inside is cold. Assuming it takes 40-45 minutes for tires to get heat soaked, two laps isn't going to do it in a5 minutes. So what happens is after the two warm up laps you get on it and start to cold tear the tire. The tire after about five laps gets warmer and the cold tearing stops. You then spend the next few laps cleaning the cold tearing off the tire. You come in and the tire looks great. But you don't see the damage that is done.
Plus, the heat cycle is not as damaging to the tire as how it is heat cycled. Obviously as I explained above you see what happens with out warmers. When you come into the pits after a session put your warmers on the tire but you don't need to plug them in. Let the tire cool slowly. That is better then the radical cool off.
You will extend your tire life greater in a session or at least equal to the cost of good warmers. Not too mention it's safer.
Pending the design of the warmers you can also heat shock the tire. So the type of warmers or their design is also dependant on how your tires last.
As far as setting pressures, Dunlop,Bridgestone and Michelin all still have good cold pressure set-ups. Pirelli is the only difficult tire to really tune and it needs hot tire pressure. Dunlop has got hot tire pressures now as well. Tuning is something that has become prominent since the introduction of the Pirelli tire.
Simply, the carcass's are lighter and the pressure dictates how much the carcass flexes. So tuning isn't something we can cover as that is an individual aspect of racing. To which most guys don't go.
I see regular Pro and top Amatuer riders setting tires cold and getting on it. So "your" program will be directly relavant to how this works or doesn't.
Most guys can set their tire according to the tire rep's recommendations and be good.
If your lap times are getting up there then you may need to address this.
Also consider, Shannonville does not build heat, it can maintain it . If you go out at 75C you will come in at 75 C. If you go out at 40 the same. On cold days around 15 C you will loose heat regardless. Mosport Tremblant,and I would think Calaboigie you may build heat as the corners have long carving corners that work to build the heat. But at roughly 15 C on most track with most riders. You can put your warmers on and in 5 to 8 laps you will loose heat. So assuming you don't use warmers, you wil not build heat. So if you figure you've been out for 5 laps and your tire is good,, guess what. That's why you see racers crash 8-10 laps into a race.And they have no idea why.
John
Thank you, thank you, thank you! Absolutely the information I was looking for, makes perfect sense now you explain it so clearly. Maybe this info could be put up as a stickie?
One last question... Is there any reliable online source where we can find baseline tire pressures and recommended operating temps for various tires? I've looked on Michelin, Dunlop and Pirelli websites, but didn't see any track-oriented info. I understand the manufacturers' reluctance to openly publish track-oriented info for liability concerns. Without even the most basic info it makes it tough for riders who don't have a lot of access to professional tire services at the track to learn "what works" for them. The organizers, instructors and tire dealers at most trackdays do their best to give general info, but are often understandably too busy to give individual attention at this level of detail to everyone.
Thanks again, much appreciated. I see a set of Bickle warmers on my Christmas list, even if Santa doesn't get them to me until May!
John, we don't use warmers but getting tires warm at Shannonville never seems to be a problem, not as warm as at Mosport.....we check the temps when we finish the session and we try to use the correct compound to make sure we are close or higher than the 180 F min.
Is this not supposed to be happening at Shanny?
Thanks
Well, on an average day, if your over 20 C then you have a good chance of getting some heat. But it also depends on your air pressure, set up, how hard you excellerate out of the corners. You really are not building heat from cornering,like Mosport. A lot of your heat is developed from excelleration. Becasue nearly all the corners are hard in, turn and hard out. The corners where you excellerate out and carry speed like Mosport 1,3,4,8,9,10 are limited. Plus Shannonville has 7 different types of ashphalt. Some good ashphalt some really old and polished.ie Corner 1.
So if the weather is good and sunny and over 20 C all should be good. But Shannonville will be harder cold tearing then Mosport as you are lower in the revs and more in the torque part of the power.
That being said are you using a tire pyrometer or infra red. Infra Red only gives you surface heat, not core temp. That can be missleading.
The fact that you are taking temps regardless and have a base line is telling you lots. Which works for you.
I'll guarantee you are cold tearing like I said a few laps in. There is no way you can get core heat into the tire in 2-3 laps at Shannonville.
What I was eluding to was on cooler days which we get, if you do not use warmers you will not build heat. Which is under 15 C. So I guess my point is, is it better to have no heat and do a 10 lap session or is better to have warmers and lose from 75C to 55C in 10 laps.
I really don't like to turn things into an infomercial so I'm trying to give you generic advice in regards to "tire warmers"
The bottom line is all race tires are designed for tire warmers. No the manufactuerer's don't give out info and usually it has to be learned. So nobody has hard core info. Pirelli can spec a tire pressure hot and I have seen guys go out way over and finish top three. everytime you think you have it "nailed" somebody changes the rules.
So should you be as dilligent as you are with pressures and testing temperatures, it will all be helpfull when the rules change. Because the only constant in this sport is change.
It would be interesting to see how your tire life works with warmers?
Sorry to be so long winded , but this is really a black science that is on-going!
One things guys never consider is if you are racing and get a 10 lap practice and take 3 laps to get warmerd up and then one lap is a cool down or half a lap you only get about six laps to get on it and sort your bike. Or a track day if you get 15 minutes and take 5 to warm up you wasted 30 + minutes in a day.
Track time is exspensive and if you're trying to sort things out or dial in suspension you will take longer to get there.
The reason pro's use warmers is to get to the problem sooner so it can be fixed. If you find your problem in a race it doesn't do you much good.
And track day guys want to go faster, sooner but safer. So it's relavant in both worlds.
Thank, thats some good info. Yes we only use the infra red temp sensor. I would like to try warmers to see if/how things would improve with tire life etc, just don't know if the cost of warmers, generator and the hassle of bringing more stuff to the track would be justified. Some say you get another day out of the tires, some say a couple of sessions? I'll have to try them one day. Thanks for the info.
[quote=murf;764508]Thank, thats some good info. Yes we only use the infra red temp sensor. quote]
Infra red only gives you the surface temp, the core of the tire is where the damage is done. By not getting the proper heat to the core of the tire the carcass will prematurely break down. So the outside rubber is fine but the inside is cool. Thus you get a fight from the outside and inside, the tire doesn't flex uniformly.
.
Dealer/Vendor
GTAM has gained a new resident expertBic da man.
++majorGTAM has gained a new resident expert
Since it seems we each must find our own way through this black science, having experienced voices like John's to draw on is invaluable.
It sounds like casing damage occurs due to the difference between the tread and core temps, causing some de-lamination?
Any wisdom on common street/track tires (Corsa II, 2Ct, BT-016) and if those constructions/compounds can better tolerate non-warmer heat/cool differentials and cycles?
Will taking wheel/rim temps give a better indication of core temps? Perhaps useful when combined with hot pressure readings?
Posting Permissions
Bookmarks