Who Are The Real Bad Guys?

[franz131]

The idea of an alternative MIC series was pushed by American Honda's Ray Blank and American Suzuki's Mel Harris.

Their claims that an MIC series could (or would) happen may have been a negotiating tactic. Previously, the pair had demanded FIM World Superbike rules for the premier class in the 2009 AMA Pro Racing series run by DMG. But when DMG offered a premier class running under FIM World Superbike rules, the pair switched their demands to proposed 2009 AMA committee rules. After DMG announced it would run a premier class (called Factory Superbike) under those rules, the pair switched their demands to existing 2008 AMA Superbike rules.

When both companies failed to commit to the 2009 Factory Superbike class run under the 2009 AMA Committee rules by an August 15 deadline, DMG cancelled the class.

I don't know if you've been following this closely Phil, but the fact is that Suzuki and Honda are screwing everyone over their little tantrum.

All I have to say is; remember WSBK when it became the 'Ducati Cup'? Everyone thought that it would die without the Japanese factories, we all know how that worked out.

AMA/DMG can survive without Suzuki and Honda, DMG has enough money to float the series on their own. When a privateer can build a competitive bike for ~$50k and DMG starts posting big prize money, the racers will come out of the woodwork.

The factories will race through their satellite teams (Jordan, Erion, Graves, Corona, Emgo, Celtic, Bostrom bros?, Jamie James?, ) then Ducati and MV Agusta show up, resulting in big crowds and great racing. Year 2 the factories make a triumphant return like nothing ever happened.

[invictus43]

It IS kinda sad that there are 6 guys lapping the field and everyone else is an also-ran. It's sad that Suzuki has won for like 5 years. I suppose some series are like that. Be nice if you could buy a factory race bike that's competitive for a reasonable price, no "special" parts..ecu's whatever. Like customer 250's back in the day.

To be fair, the Japanese left WSBK because they were at a competitive disadvantage because of the rules. They didn't want to build Ducati's, they wanted WSBK to bolster their street bikes, inline 4's. Eventually WSBK gave them a more even playing field and they returned.

I suppose the "glamour" of the series is affected if it becomes too spec-oriented. Do they want to try and compete with MotoGP? For instance, if F1 allowed customer cars, where does that end? Does it become less glamourous because there are 5 teams running McLaren chassis? Does it become low-tech if you overly limit the rules? Does low-tech turn people off? Dunno..

[franz131]

It IS kinda sad that there are 6 guys lapping the field and everyone else is an also-ran. It's sad that Suzuki has won for like 5 years.

You've seen 6 guys? More like 3.

To be fair, the Japanese left WSBK because they were at a competitive disadvantage because of the rules. They didn't want to build Ducati's, they wanted WSBK to bolster their street bikes, inline 4's. Eventually WSBK gave them a more even playing field and they returned.

Remember that Honda built a Ducati and won. It was the 'dumbing down' of the series with spec tires that prompted the mass exit.

Does it become less glamourous because there are 5 teams running McLaren chassis? Does it become low-tech if you overly limit the rules? Does low-tech turn people off? Dunno..

2 words: Nas Car, very low tech, very high spectator appeal.
The average person watching a race has no clue how fast it really is, they have no frame of reference.
A spectator will be more happy seeing 10 screaming cars swapping paint at 1:20 then a boring procession at 1:04.
'Glamour' is an expensive endulgence best left to F-1.

[Brian P]

To answer the original question in the thread title, there is plenty of blame to go around.

In my mind, DMG was wrong from the outset in deviating from the 2009 rules that had previously been agreed upon before they became involved. Having already gone through the rules negotiation, suddenly saying "doesn't suit our needs, we are going to change it again" brings a feeling of bad faith to the negotiation table.

But, given this mis-step, Honda and Suzuki are wrong to flip-flop in their demands. I do not understand why they are doing this.

"Shoulda woulda coulda" ... I recognize that DMG has a certain vision for what they want to see, and I understand (at least some of) why they want to go in that direction. But, change like this has to be managed carefully. Sudden changes in direction are bad news because everyone needs lead-time to prepare for them. (People have contracts, manufacturers have production constraints, aftermarket suppliers have development-time and production delivery constraints, etc.) What DMG should have done, in MY opinion, was to let the previously-negotiated 2009 rules stand, and then propose harmonizing with World Superbike (and World Supersport) for 2010 and beyond. It's known that World Superbike wants to de-content the bikes in the interest of slowing them down - and this is consistent with at least some of what DMG originally wanted to see.

DMG's original proposal of having 600's only was off the deep end. I understand it from the point of view of slowing the bikes down for safety reasons, but it's just not consistent with the "premier" sport bikes being 1000cc from *every* manufacturer right now. Until such time as the premier models go down in displacement (and I think this is only a matter of time) then the premier racing class should showcase the premium models ...

[invictus43]

You've seen 6 guys? More like 3.

Haha! Yeah..could be 3..I was being generous.. I mean, it's pointless to watch either a) Ben Spies or b) Mat Mladin win every time.

Remember that Honda built a Ducati and won. It was the 'dumbing down' of the series with spec tires that prompted the mass exit.

Yeah..that's true. I think also that the v-twin wasn't in the Japanese manufacturers plan so that's partly why they gave it up. They didn't want to compete with Ducati on the showroom floor..they sold inline-4's and that's what they wanted to race. Well, Honda wanted to build V-4's...

2 words: Nas Car, very low tech, very high spectator appeal.
The average person watching a race has no clue how fast it really is, they have no frame of reference.
A spectator will be more happy seeing 10 screaming cars swapping paint at 1:20 then a boring procession at 1:04.
'Glamour' is an expensive endulgence best left to F-1.

Yeah, I agree mostly. I think the "premier" series can be a no-holds or costs spared show. MotoGP, F1..does AMA think they can compete at that level? If the answer is no, they need to be a little more fair-minded. Your Nascar example is perfect. Toyota came and started winning because they were changing the norm. Nascar said "work within the box that Dodge/Ford/GM work within because we're just going to slow you down if you're faster". They didn't want unlimited spending..they want competition. I think that's a good model for AMA.

Interesting you mention the procession at 1:04. Didja notice the pointlessness at Mosport of the ALMS? I mean, who is competing with the Audi's?!?! Nobody. Same with P2. There was some competition in GT-2..but that's about it. I think it's popular with fans because at any given time, there is passing going on..even though it's between classes.

Oh..just to balance things..I would hate to see an IRL situation..where, it seems, there is only one engine and one chassis. I think that's a little TOO spec. I hope all 4 or 5 or 6 manufacturers can stay in AMA and make it a good show. I just get tired of watching Ben Spies go by the 10th place guy (!!) like he's tied to a tree. It's a joke really.

[minifig-phil]

I don't think that the Mladin Spies show was bad at all In fact I think it was the best thing in AMA racing in years. If you want to go see a different winner win every weekend Go watch NASCRAP! I think those two riders are that much better than the field and it doesn't matter what they ride. There is a HUGE void in talent in North America as far as riders go just like the years Doohan won all those world championships. It's not Suzuki's fault nor is it Spies and Mladin’s fault if you’re going to blame someone blame all the other second rate riders out there for not stepping it up (Sorry, I know that was harsh but compared to the best they are).
Motorcycle racing is NOT car racing and the rider is most of the equation, in car racing it's all car in bike racing it’s all rider.
As far the if the DMG It will succeed without Honda and Suzuki your right they will, They have a bottomless pockets to reach into. And I have been following this very closely because I’m a diehard race fan more so than anyone I know. DMG are going to ruin racing in the US!!
I don’t want to watch 600 Superstocks as the premier class and a bunch of SV650’s as the side show, I want to see full blown superbikes with the best riders available and the trickest equipment they can get. You have to admit the Daytona 200 has lost a lot of its appeal when they went to FX bikes just imagine the whole series is going to be like this now! It’s going to be just as bad as racing in Canada has gotten.
If NASCRAP is any indication of how this series will go a good rider will be penalized every time they get a win streak going. I once watched some NASCRAP show and Kyle Petty said that where doing this for the fans I almost Barfed when I heard that. Fronz you were a racer did you do it for the people in the stands or for yourself??? This is the mentality of the DMG all they care about is entertainment and $$ not true racing. Frank Williams said it best to Jeff Gordon When you want to become a racer not an entertainer we’ll talk.

[minifig-phil]

I don't know if you've been following this closely Phil, but the fact is that Suzuki and Honda are screwing everyone over their little tantrum.

How are they screwing everyone over??

All I have to say is; remember WSBK when it became the 'Ducati Cup'? Everyone thought that it would die without the Japanese factories, we all know how that worked out.

How did that work out? do you think the series would be alive today if the Japanese didn't come back?

AMA/DMG can survive without Suzuki and Honda, DMG has enough money to float the series on their own. When a privateer can build a competitive bike for ~$50k and DMG starts posting big prize money, the racers will come out of the woodwork.

Your right and a breakaway series isn't going to happen because they will have no tracks to race on Thanks to the DMG.

The factories will race through their satellite teams (Jordan, Erion, Graves, Corona, Emgo, Celtic, Bostrom bros?, Jamie James?, ) then Ducati and MV Agusta show up, resulting in big crowds and great racing. Year 2 the factories make a triumphant return like nothing ever happened.

Thats like taking the Repsol Honda, Fiat Yamaha and Malboro Ducati team out of MotoGP or better yet taking all the factory teams out of WSBK It's just not the same.



I'm not against the DMG (well oK I am) they could do wonderful things for bike racing but Edmonston chooses to be a selfish bully.

[franz131]

We all agree that DMG started out on the wrong foot.
We all agree that a superbike class without superbikes is not a good idea.

However,
Once DMG relented and asked for input, the consolidation process should have begun, if the goal was to work together. Instead, the childish behaviour of Suzuki and Honda was layed plain for all to see. Saying that "he started it" stopped working as an excuse in grade school.

Phil, if you think that the formation lapping that passes for AMA racing is fine, our views differ significantly. I say the CBR125 cup race on Sunday was 100 times more exciting because there were 4 riders battling to the wire. The grandstands were packed and everyone was on their feet cheering.

I watch racing to see a battle of wills and skill, not a season-long Suzuki commercial. Good on them if they happen to be the best, but as we've recently seen, they've also been cheating on top of it (does no one else wonder why Spies's crank was the only legal one?). Could it be that Mladin and Spies are 30+ seconds faster over a race distance than Hacking, Hodgson, Bostrom, DuHamel etc. on pure pace? So they can switch bikes and produce the same results?

Suzuki spends more than anyone else, denies the best parts to it's satellite teams, cheats to win and is willing to bring down the series to serve themselves. I think DMG should turf them from the championship for cheating (except Spies) and lets get back to racing motorcycles.

[minifig-phil]

Well if you like watching CBR125 cup races then the the DMG is for you!!

I think the pass Spies put on Mladin in race 2 at Road Atlanta with the bike all tied up in knots and wheels in the air was better then 2000 lead changes in a CBR125 cup race!

Why do you blame the AMA for the Ben and Mat show?
It's not there fault why would you blame a team and rider who tries the hardest?
When Doohan and Rossi were winning all those MotoGP champoinships did you blame the FIM? No you blamed the lack of talent in the field. Same with when Schumacher was winning all the F1 stuff did you blame the FIA?
Thats the way NASCRAP works not real racing
It's not the AMA's job to punish hard workers and reward the lazy (for lack of a better word)!

BTW I'm going to paint the crank in my TZ green and grind off all the numbers so that my bike will go faster! I know rules are rules but there is no performance gains in the crankshaft Suzuki were using.

[minifig-phil]

What about Ricky Charmichael in the outdoors or even James Stewart this year with a perfect season is that the AMA fault or Kawasaki (Stewart)?

No some other guy (vilipoto??) needs to step up if they want to win.

Not make them all race XR100's so the fans will see close racing!

[franz131]

BTW I'm going to paint the crank in my TZ green and grind off all the numbers so that my bike will go faster! I know rules are rules but there is no performance gains in the crankshaft Suzuki were using.

No performance gains in the crankshaft??????????
C'mon Phil, you've been around long enought to know better.
If it was so innocent and silly, they wouldn't have been DQ'd.
What caused the DQ of Hayes at Daytona? Crankshaft!

[invictus43]

Not make them all race XR100's so the fans will see close racing!

That's a little extreme. I think there can be ground in between. MotoGP went from 1000cc to 800cc to slow the bikes down. Yeah, they're still fast..but speed isn't everything. I think you can still have 1000cc superbikes that are friggin fast but don't cost $100k and aren't allowed to have factory special parts.

[invictus43]

No performance gains in the crankshaft??????????
C'mon Phil, you've been around long enought to know better.
If it was so innocent and silly, they wouldn't have been DQ'd.
What caused the DQ of Hayes at Daytona? Crankshaft!

Does anybody know specifically what was different about their cranks? I mean, there can absolutely be performance gains..and even more important, durability gains. If you're trying to keep costs down, they should either spec a crank that's cheap or use the factory crank. Let's face it, AMA doesn't have the prestige/money to allow unlimited budgets.

EDIT:
http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/...?article=33935
So they are basically non-homologated cranks. They could be surface-hardened, coated or a completely different grade of steel. I think that's enough to cause a penalty to be invoked. What's the point of having a spec for homologation if nobody follows it?

[Brian P]

From what I've been able to gather, the issue with the Suzuki cranks seems to be the way the serial numbers and size markings were stamped combined with the colour of the crankshaft itself. Funky colours usually indicate funky (i.e. non-OEM) heat treatment or surface treatment processes or both.

"What's the point of having a spec for homologation if nobody follows it" -> there is a related question, "What's the point of having a spec for homologation if nobody is going to ENFORCE it". And for this, I think DMG is doing the right thing ... and it sure would have been interesting if they had pulled the top 3 crankshafts at VIR instead of only the winner. We will never know if Spies was legal from the outset, or if his team swapped to a legal crank for the next round ...

Proving homologation can be a tricky business. Every dimension of every part has a tolerance somewhere on a drawing. So, you take an OEM part and re-manufacture it according to the side of each dimensional tolerance that you "want". Or, if you are that OEM, you send a batch of parts down the line with the equipment adjusted to manufacture it according to the tolerance you "want". Or you pull 100 parts off the line, measure them all, and pick the ones you want. If you are really tricky, you manufacture the race parts and the run-of-the-mill parts differently, and make sure the specs on the drawing are wide enough to allow both. It gets even trickier when ECU programming and mapping is involved.

Building bikes to a homologation spec can be even more expensive than building them to a superbike spec.

[minifig-phil]

Rules are Rules your right.
So Fronz teach me what are the performance gains in these cranks cause I see none they were the same weight and same stroke as a homoligated crank.
I'm not trying to defend Suzuki I was just trying to prove my point that they have the far best riders (by far) and probably the best bike although the Kawasaki and Honda aren't to bad either. I believe both Spies and Mladin could win by just as much of a margin with either of them.

[franz131]

Rules are Rules your right.
So Fronz teach me what are the performance gains in these cranks cause I see none they were the same weight and same stroke as a homoligated crank.

2 things:
They mention the colour, indicating a special treatment, likely anti-friction.
They also mention the oil holes lacking any chamfer, this also supports that an anti-friction coating is allowing them to reduce the oil being delivered to the bearings. Reduction of fluid friction can make a large difference in power output and acceleration (or in road cars, fuel economy). They could gain upwards of 5% with this area alone. How much does 5% more power cost?

I'm not trying to defend Suzuki I was just trying to prove my point that they have the far best riders (by far) and probably the best bike although the Kawasaki and Honda aren't to bad either. I believe both Spies and Mladin could win by just as much of a margin with either of them.

I agree that Spies and Mladin are 2 of the best in the series, possibly the 2 best. However, I highly doubt they would be dropping everyone like they are now without superior bikes.

[invictus43]

2 things:
They mention the colour, indicating a special treatment, likely anti-friction.
They also mention the oil holes lacking any chamfer, this also supports that an anti-friction coating is allowing them to reduce the oil being delivered to the bearings. Reduction of fluid friction can make a large difference in power output and acceleration (or in road cars, fuel economy). They could gain upwards of 5% with this area alone. How much does 5% more power cost?

What if they can run an extra 2000 rpm without self-destructing? RPM = Horsepower. That's part of the arms race mentality. It can get expensive.

[Brian P]

http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/...?article=34109

I would have to say in this case that the AMA's position seems to make sense.

Even though it appears that Yoshimura Suzuki claims to have come up with a crankshaft from a production bike that is like the one Mladin had, I think the AMA's grounds is that the crankshaft they had in their possession, which was the homologated one, did not match the one in Mladin's bike, and that if a person "off the street" ordered the part number of a Suzuki GSXR1000 crankshaft, the part that they would have gotten would have matched the homologated one and not the one Mladin had.

[Brian P]

Now, with the competing MIC series having been announced, Roadracing World came up with a good one. I love this quote: "The real issue may not be rules, but rather any attempt to force factory teams to actually follow the rules..."

http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/...?article=34131