Spec tires in Motogp

[Kaotic Trance]

With the roles of tires playing such a huge factor for race wins, and with michelin having disasterous tires at laguna and brno, there's been talk of having a spec tire in motogp. Do you guys think a spec tire rule would be good for motogp?

WSBK and the CDN Superbike use Pirelli as a spec tire and the racing is much closer...

[minifig-phil]

Before World superbike went to a spec tire it thought it was an absurd rule and the choice of using Pirelli’s was going to ruin a good series.
But now I see what it did to WSBK and i think it was the best thing ever. Right now WSBK is the best bike racing on the planet by far! MotoGP has its share of good races but not like WSBK.

So I'm all for a spec tire in MotoGP. The only drawback I can see is if every series goes to a spec tire there will be no incentive or reason for tire manufactures to spend the money to do any more tire development which is going to hurt all of us in the long run.

Tire competition = Better Tires
Spec tire = Better Racing

[franz131]

******, I almost agree with Phil.

The problem is if the spec tire is Bridgestone, none of the Pirelli series' will see the development.

e.g. Last year there was mention that a Pirelli tire developed in Canada won in WSBK. That can only happen between 2 Pirelli supplies series. Bridgestone's knowledge will go elsewhere.

[invictus43]

I know in car racing the tire is a huge thing. Like, a good to a bad tire, BOTH race tires, can be 1.5-2 secs a lap. And it costs a huge amount of money to develop the tires. It's like an arms race. I think a spec tire can hurt one bike or another for a season if you've developed around the tire of your choice, or one rider over another depending on their style, but after a year I think it'd sort itself out. And if you sign up with a manufacturer, and they screw the pooch, your year is over. Nothing can make up for bad tires.

Show up with 3 compounds, no "specials", I think that would make for better racing.

[minifig-phil]

I hate to see a tire be the deciding factor on who wins a race. Last year inMotoGP the Michelins were terrible and it sucked to see Rossi struggle at the back of the pack when you know if he had the brridgstones he would have been up front with Stoner.

I don't see how the Canadian series helped WSBK our superbike series up here is Superstock and we race on the crappiest (tightest) tracks in the world (except maybe Mosport)

[franz131]

I don't see how the Canadian series helped WSBK our superbike series up here is Superstock and we race on the crappiest (tightest) tracks in the world (except maybe Mosport)

And that's exactly why they were able to learn things from our series. We presented a major challenge to Pirelli and they were able to apply some of their solutions to other series'.

[Mau]

I had this discussion with the OP.

The machines are out further ahead than tires. By limiting tire selection, you'll handicap the machines.

You want tire development? Make it a free market!! The big players will be forced to do more research. If your product sucks, no one will use them.

Create parameters for quanities and maybe a "budget".

But, again, support free market.

[franz131]

I had this discussion with the OP.

The machines are out further ahead than tires. By limiting tire selection, you'll handicap the machines.

You want tire development? Make it a free market!! The big players will be forced to do more research. If your product sucks, no one will use them.

Create parameters for quanities and maybe a "budget".

But, again, support free market.

Considering the size of our series and the number of participants, how many engineers would Pirelli send here from Italy if they had to fight for the business?
Can we use negative numbers?

The only way a tire company will invest the resources in our series is if they know they'll get the business. The only way to KNOW you're getting the business is to be the only supplier.

Part of the deal has to be development of the product, we've been breaking track records all over the country, so they've been holding up their end. Ask any pro who's ridden on the development stuff from Pirelli, there was a lot of improvement during the first year of the contract as data was sent back to Italy.

I hated the deal because it interfered with my Dunlop tire deal, others with Bridgestone and Michelin. But it really put our series on a world stage and enabled us to contribute to WSBK, something that would never happen any other way.

[mobius]

having all the GP guys run on the same brand of tire would make for some awesome racing. those 18 guys are all the best of the best in the world, and having all of them ride on the same tire would bring the gap at the finish line alot closer. having all of them demand bridgestone to give them an edge over the next guy in the pits would push development even further.
pirelli didnt slow down development once they became a spec tire, they always give us something new and exiteing to try out at the track and on the streets.

[minifig-phil]

I think they should all be on Goodyears or something rock hard like that and get the sliding back that was there in the Eddie, Wayne and Kevin days.

[Grimmy]

Considering the size of our series and the number of participants, how many engineers would Pirelli send here from Italy if they had to fight for the business?
Can we use negative numbers?

The only way a tire company will invest the resources in our series is if they know they'll get the business. The only way to KNOW you're getting the business is to be the only supplier.

Part of the deal has to be development of the product, we've been breaking track records all over the country, so they've been holding up their end. Ask any pro who's ridden on the development stuff from Pirelli, there was a lot of improvement during the first year of the contract as data was sent back to Italy.

I hated the deal because it interfered with my Dunlop tire deal, others with Bridgestone and Michelin. But it really put our series on a world stage and enabled us to contribute to WSBK, something that would never happen any other way.

Yet, on the flip side, and more realistically, if a supplier knows that they contractually are the ONLY brand permitted, there is no motivation to upgrade or improve the product. They already have ALL the business. Heck, a spec tire supplier could serve up 10 year old product to everyone, and there would be nothing the rider could do about it. Its cheaper to sell tires with no updating, then to update product.

Furthermore, when a supplier and a series are joined at the wallet er hip, the rules and fairness of the series and its integrity as a series become comprimised. It already has been noted that Mirabel in Quebec is a tire eater, even worse than Mosport or Shanny. I expect a double header there next year. Sales for pirelli will be through the roof.

As for Motogp. It is a development bike series. All bikes are prototypes. All bikes are worth in the millions. Production series ideals do not suit motogp. The teams have tons of money, and spend it. Open up the brands, types, compounds, and only restrict usage. Lets see what these bikes can REALLY do.

[donut]

Yet, on the flip side, and more realistically, if a supplier knows that they contractually are the ONLY brand permitted, there is no motivation to upgrade or improve the product. They already have ALL the business. Heck, a spec tire supplier could serve up 10 year old product to everyone, and there would be nothing the rider could do about it. Its cheaper to sell tires with no updating, then to update product.

This is only true when looking at one season.

If Pirelli (or any other manufacturer) were to do that, I'm sure the race organizers would tell Pirelli "you've done sweet **** all this year, we're going to Dunlop next year. don't let the door hit you on the way out"

There is no guarantee of business year to year, the best way to secure such business is to do what Pirelli has been doing. Play an active role in the series, treat it as a valuable learning experience for their R&D efforts (which it is). So long as Pirelli gives 100% in their efforts to improve the tire and works with the teams their deal with the Parts Canada series is much more secure than it otherwise would be.

In this case, the race series is the customer. If you keep the customer happy, you keep the customer.

Furthermore, when a supplier and a series are joined at the wallet er hip, the rules and fairness of the series and its integrity as a series become comprimised. It already has been noted that Mirabel in Quebec is a tire eater, even worse than Mosport or Shanny. I expect a double header there next year. Sales for pirelli will be through the roof.

An inaccurate statement.

Pirelli Race and Pirelli Street tires go through distribution networks. I can guaranteee you that no Diablo Supercorsa, Diablo Superbike or Diablo Rain tire being used in the PC Race series has ever gone through a Parts Canada warehouse. Those tires are shipped from Germany or Italy directly to a Canadian Pirelli Race distribution center and then to the tracks/teams/etc.

[murf]

I think they should all be on Goodyears or something rock hard like that and get the sliding back that was there in the Eddie, Wayne and Kevin days.

Traction control

[murf]

Just get rid of the rule where every motogp team has to pick an allotment of tires on the Thursday before the race. That rule is what has screwed up Michelin. Previous to that they could bring in tires right up until Sunday, so if the weather changed or a particular tire didn't work they would bring something that would work the following day.

[mihnea]

Just get rid of the rule where every motogp team has to pick an allotment of tires on the Thursday before the race. That rule is what has screwed up Michelin. Previous to that they could bring in tires right up until Sunday, so if the weather changed or a particular tire didn't work they would bring something that would work the following day.

and that is why bridgestones are better... they seem to get it right from the get-go.

[Grimmy]

This is only true when looking at one season.

If Pirelli (or any other manufacturer) were to do that, I'm sure the race organizers would tell Pirelli "you've done sweet **** all this year, we're going to Dunlop next year. don't let the door hit you on the way out"

There is no guarantee of business year to year, the best way to secure such business is to do what Pirelli has been doing. Play an active role in the series, treat it as a valuable learning experience for their R&D efforts (which it is). So long as Pirelli gives 100% in their efforts to improve the tire and works with the teams their deal with the Parts Canada series is much more secure than it otherwise would be.

In this case, the race series is the customer. If you keep the customer happy, you keep the customer.

Inaccurate: The contract is a multiyear contract for spec tire supply, and was recently renewed. Tire quality simply needs to be on par with the other manufacturers, and service level needs to meet the demand for speed and acuracy at the track and tire tracking systems. I cannot comment on if Canadian pirelli race tires are any different than any part of the world with any accuracy to validate if r&d takes effect on Canada spec race tires.

As for customer satisfaction - if you want to race in the Canada championship, you MUST run pirelli. Your other choice is not racing at all. There is no alternate series to run in other than the regionals. The same goes for Motogp. If a spec tire was instated, there is no alternate series for the factory teams to go to if they do not prefer a tire brand. The largest difference is, that due to media exposure etc etc, the supplier would have a massively developing tire base as already in practice. Our Canadian series does not have the exposure or demand.

An inaccurate statement.

Pirelli Race and Pirelli Street tires go through distribution networks. I can guaranteee you that no Diablo Supercorsa, Diablo Superbike or Diablo Rain tire being used in the PC Race series has ever gone through a Parts Canada warehouse. Those tires are shipped from Germany or Italy directly to a Canadian Pirelli Race distribution center and then to the tracks/teams/etc.

No sure where street tires are part of a racing tire lineup (other than very cold weather or as an intermediate tire for sloppy conditions). No note of supplier routing for shipping made either by me. None of this statement makes and difference to the business relationship of the series and the tire supplier paying substantial sponsorship and exclusive tire supplier dollars.

[freedomfighter]

I think they should all be on Goodyears or something rock hard like that and get the sliding back that was there in the Eddie, Wayne and Kevin days.

well phil if you like dunlops your on goodyear..goodyear makes dunlops.
i'm not in favour of a spec tire class. one of the reason pirreli ,hait them they wont take the abuse the dunlop will.and after seeing alot of scrubs from the race track it proves what i'm saying.
at cayuga all i can get is 4 sesion out of a rear pirreli slick and i can get 2 days out of a 209 dunlop and they still look mint.

[franz131]

Yet, on the flip side, and more realistically, if a supplier knows that they contractually are the ONLY brand permitted, there is no motivation to upgrade or improve the product. They already have ALL the business. Heck, a spec tire supplier could serve up 10 year old product to everyone, and there would be nothing the rider could do about it. Its cheaper to sell tires with no updating, then to update product.

Your position has some merit as a logical possibility, I will explain why it doesn't apply to the PCSC/Pirelli deal.

When the deal was struck, the contracted stipulated 2 levels of tires be made available.
1. Standard DOT and slick tires for support classes and pros
2. Special development tires for pros only

Also stipulated in the deal was the development of specific compounds and construction for our bumpy goat trails. I'm sure you remember the firestorm on cherrypicker when word got out that you couldn't keep and sell the development tires.

It turns out that Pirelli did develop some new tires here (some of which got used in other series') and improved the standard tires as well.

I'm a Dunlop guy too but the Pirelli deal has worked as it was intended (tire stickers aside).

Officially, I'm in favour of a single tire supplier, but not a spec tire, for MotoGP.

[murf]

and that is why bridgestones are better... they seem to get it right from the get-go.

Actually Michelin was better for decades until they changed the rules to what suited Bridgestone better in hopes of making it cheaper for all.

[Kaotic Trance]

Actually Michelin was better for decades until they changed the rules to what suited Bridgestone better in hopes of making it cheaper for all.

michelin was only better because they were on the best bike and rider/crew chief out there (rossi/burgess with honda and yamaha)

they're a reactive company whereas bridgestone is proactive, it's understandable that they might have problems the first year the tire rule came out, but they've had a year to work out any flaws so they shouldn't have any excuses. it's not even that their tires are just marginally worse, at laguna and brno they were exponentially worse.