Fighting a speeding ticket... questions

[SLaP]

I am doing some research regarding fighting speeding tickets.

Any answers you have regarding any of the questions below would very much be appreciated. If you have sources for your answers, please provide links, contact information, etc.

1. If there were 2 police officers present at a speed trap, one sitting in the car, while the other gunned and ticketed drivers, do both officers have to show up to the court case?

2. What is the common radar/lidar device used by 63 division? Are they using more than one type currently?
Links to manuals?

3. Are the any cases in Ontario which have proven that a hand-held lidar device is subjective to the officers hand stability and proven to be inadequate to provide an a correct reading? Please provide details.

4. Although it is unlikely to receive the information regarding the other stops for that day, has anyone or their agent, been able to receive this information in the disclosure?

5. Although it is unlikely to receive the information regarding the number of over-time hours the officer has logged in a given timeframe related to traffic infractions, has anyone or their agent, been able to receive this information in the disclosure?

6. Can one (and should one) apply for disclosure prior to the first appearance?

Thanks in advance!

[Rob MacLennan]

Most of what you're asking is either answered at this link, a link that is pointed to within that thread, or will be answered when you receive disclosure. Yes, request disclosure. You are unlikely to receive any information about any stop other than your own, due to issues of relevance and privacy concerns.

http://www.gtamotorcycle.com/vbforum...ad.php?t=59068

[SLaP]

Hi Rob,

Thanks for the quick reply. However I pose these questions after reading that very useful posting you have referenced, as it did not, nor did the links within, specifically answer the questions above (Or at least not that I could see).

Thanks for your answers to my questions which relate to questions 4, 5, and 6.

Reword of question #4 and #5:
#4. Although it is unlikely to receive the information regarding the other stops for that day, has anyone or their agent, been able to receive this information in the disclosure?

#5. Although it is unlikely to receive the information regarding the number of over-time hours the officer has logged in a given timeframe related to traffic infractions, has anyone or their agent, been able to receive this information in the disclosure?

[Rob MacLennan]

Unfortunately I can't definitively answer either 4 or 5. You would have to consult a traffic specialist (attorney) to find out if 4 is possible and I strongly suspect that #5, as it directly impacts on a human resources issue, wouldn't be granted due to a violation of the officer's right to privacy.

[SLaP]

I too highly doubt one would be able to get the overtime hours of the officer. I throw the question out there in case anyone has some experience with obtaining such information in their disclosure, since it could possibly be relevant in such a court case.

[MarcosSantiago]

1.-If there were 2 police officers present at a speed trap, one sitting in the car, while the other gunned and ticketed drivers, do both officers have to show up to the court case?
No

2. What is the common radar/lidar device used by 63 division? Are they using more than one type currently?
You will find out the manufacturer and model when you get disclosure

3. Are the any cases in Ontario which have proven that a hand-held lidar device is subjective to the officers hand stability and proven to be inadequate to provide an a correct reading?
Not sure, don’t think so. Will look for it...

4. As part of the disclosure, will one be able to receive a log of all the tickets issued that day/location, and the speeds recorded for each ticket issued?
You can ask, but it is doubtful that it will be provided

5. As part of the disclosure, will one be able to receive the number of over-time hours the officer has logged in a given timeframe related to traffic infractions?
Again, you can ask, but it is doubtful that it will be provided

6. Can one (and should one) apply for disclosure prior to the first appearance?
No, usually you ask for disclosure after you receive your trial date in the mail

[SLaP]

Hi MarcosSantiago,

Thanks for your response to my questions.

1.-If there were 2 police officers present at a speed trap, one sitting in the car, while the other gunned and ticketed drivers, do both officers have to show up to the court case?
No

For your answer to #1. Do you have any sources or addition information to backup your answer? (You know, I believe you, however proof is required, you know, court of law and blah blah blah )

2. What is the common radar/lidar device used by 63 division? Are they using more than one type currently?
You will find out the manufacturer and model when you get disclosure

I know one could get that information upon disclosure, however, if one were trying to get an early start on research it would be helpful if it was known that an officer's division uses only one or two particular models of radar/lidar. If anyone is in the know, please advise.

3. Are the any cases in Ontario which have proven that a hand-held lidar device is subjective to the officers hand stability and proven to be inadequate to provide an a correct reading?
Not sure, don’t think so. Will look for it...

I have been looking for such cases also. However, I have not found any cases yet.
If you or anyone else finds information regarding such a case it could be a useful piece of information to have in any future cases where a hand-held lidar device is used.

Thanks!

[Rossi86]

If it was LIDAR, find out if it has received Judicial Notice in Ontario. Last time I read the FYST website it had not recieved judicial notice, which means a LIDAR manufacturer representative would have to explaing how this method works and prove it works, in court. This one totally depeneds on the judge, some can dismiss the charge based on that some don't care and say continue even if you object to the equipment used to measure your speed. But still you should bring up all the opportunities you have to fight this ticket...

[SLaP]

Hi Rossi86,

Thanks for trying, however it appears the FYST website is rather outdated. The page that references judicial notice and Lidar shows "Last updated: October 24, 2003."... http://www.magma.ca/~fyst/fystfaq.htm

Unfortunately, I have found a more recent case (2006) that upholds 4 previous decisions that a manufacturer's expert evidence is not needed in a trial.

COURT FILE No. 4862-69297687: Toronto
Citation: R. v. McLachlan, 2006 ONCJ 318


http://www.canlii.org/en/on/oncj/doc...06oncj318.html

==== Excerpt======

[20]Justice Fairgrieve’s decision is that, because of the consistent and regular use of the laser speed technology, we have now reached a time in Ontario and elsewhere in Canada that trial judges may take judicial notice of the fact that the laser speed device is settled technology and that the manufacturer’s recommended procedures to test the accuracy of the machine are sufficient. Justice Fairgrieve’s view has been followed by at least three other judges in this court in reported cases, Justice Marion Lane in R. v. Odusanya [2002] O.J. No. 3209, Justice Joseph Kenkel in R. v. Sepiashvili [2003] O.J. No. 3996 and Justice Jeff Casey in R. v. Khalatbari [2004] O. J. No. 4167.
[21]In my view it can now be stated with certainty that the laser technology is no longer “novel” and may be received in evidence in Ontario without expert evidence, where the laser operator can testify that he has been trained in the use of the device and has followed the manufacturer’s recommended testing procedures both before and after using the device.

==== End of excerpt======


If one was to dispute the reading of the Lidar device, I would think that the best approach would be to look at the human aspect...

1. The officer's expertise with the particular device used (ie: certification, training, experience)
2. The officer followed the manufacturer's instructions for proper use of the device
3. Was the device was properly maintained? Are there records to prove this?

If anyone has experience or information related to disputing the use of Lidar in a trial for speeding, please chime in.

[MarcosSantiago]

...
I know one could get that information upon disclosure, however, if one were trying to get an early start on research it would be helpful if it was known that an officer's division uses only one or two particular models of radar/lidar. If anyone is in the know, please advise.
...

I like the early start on research. Excellent!

Check this thread http://www.gtamotorcycle.com/vbforum...ad.php?t=68836

IMHO, that is the most common model. I posted the contact information for the manufacturer (3rd post).

[SLaP]

Marcos,

I think it might be hard to get it from them directly, as those copyrighted materials are for owners of the device. However, I will give it a try! I may have to wait for the manual and users guide to be provided via disclosure to "review the manual in private study."

Anyhow, thanks for the suggestion! Much appreciated!

[SLaP]

After reviewing a few decisions, it appears it may prove to be difficult to get access to the manuals, although the User's Guide(s) appear fair game. Although one should still make the request, just in case.


http://www.canlii.org/en/on/onipc/do...nlii56313.html



====Excerpt======

In all the circumstances, the Police have failed to satisfy me that the exemptions in sections 8(1)(a) and (l) apply, and the user’s guide shall be ordered disclosed.

ORDER:

1. I order the Police to disclose the user’s guide for the specified traffic radar device to the appellant by sending him a copy by December 30, 2004.

2. In order to verify compliance with this order, I reserve the right to require the Police to provide me with a copy of the record disclosed to the appellant in accordance with paragraph 1 above.

====End of Excerpt==

Does anyone have experience with receiving a laser device "manual" as part of disclosure or does anyone happen to have access to an LTI UltraLyte LR B manual which I can view? If so, could you advise and elaborate, either here or via PM.

[DaveP]

Check this out: http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=29050

[MarcosSantiago]

Check this out: http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=29050

Great find!

From that link, I found this one, the one model I have seen myself in operation...
http://speed.g-zona.hr/manuals/UltraLyte%20LR%20B.2.pdf

Download a copy to your PC !!!!!

[SLaP]

Thanks Dave... Nice find!

Now if one were to have found a manual on a link from that page, for the UltraLyte LR B device, and it were found to be up to date and found to be the correct manual for the particular device used by one particular officer, in one particular case (by cross referencing the manual part number with the serial number on an officer's device), the said manual could prove to be useful for that particular case. *This would mean that one would most likely still have to wait for disclosure to know for sure if the manual is a good piece of reference or not.

If the manual is an actual original manual from Laser Technology, Inc. I am sure it can be useful in some form or other for a speeding case involving a speed trap which utilizes a UltraLyte LR B device (ie: formulating questions for the case )

I am going to do some more research, however does anyone know the legality of presenting a copy of a manual downloaded from the internet as evidence in court case?

[DaveP]

Thanks Dave... Nice find!

Now if one were to have found a manual on a link from that page, for the UltraLyte LR B device, and it were found to be up to date and found to be the correct manual for the particular device used by one particular officer, in one particular case (by cross referencing the manual part number with the serial number on an officer's device), the said manual could prove to be useful for that particular case. *This would mean that one would most likely still have to wait for disclosure to know for sure if the manual is a good piece of reference or not.

If the manual is an actual original manual from Laser Technology, Inc. I am sure it can be useful in some form or other for a speeding case involving a speed trap which utilizes a UltraLyte LR B device (ie: formulating questions for the case )

I am going to do some more research, however does anyone know the legality of presenting a copy of a manual downloaded from the internet as evidence in court case?

So long as you are not redistributing the copy yourself I can't see any copyright infringement issues, so long as you do not stand to gain financially through redistribution you should be good. If the validity of the document becomes in question than request an authentic copy from the officer, he should provide a copy to refute yours. At which point you can use the popo's own manual against himself. LOL

This might work but i'm certainly no lawyer!

[SLaP]

Seems the manual would be admissible judging by the case in the following link. http://charged.ca/pdf/Hon.pdf

Long read, but gist is that defendant's agent produced what appeared to be an copy of an official manual. The agent said he was unsure of how it was obtained but that he believed it to be an actual manual for the device used in the incident which was being disputed in this particular trial.

[ticketed4speed]

Hi :
I just received my trial date in the mail for Feb 2009 for a speeding ticket in April 2008 in Toronto. It specifies the date and place of the trial (Eglinton West) and with a time of 3:00pm. I called the court and asked what time court runs till in the day and she said everything is pretty much shutdown by 4:45pm each day. The 3:00pm seems strange to me as it is pretty late. How many people would typically be scheduled for 3:00pm and how many would the court get through before 4:45pm? If time runs out, will my date get rescheduled further out? I assume that those pleading not guilty would be last on the list and run the risk of being rescheduled. Is 3:00pm a reasonable time to start and what sort of chances are there to actually getting the trial going?

Thanks!

[SLaP]

Considering that a very high percentage will plead guilty to a lesser charge, a bunch will ask for adjournment, and a few cases the officer won't show. They can get through those ones in quite a hurry!

3:00pm seems strange to me too. However, I haven't been to court in years. But when I did go to court I saw stranger things than that.

[DaveP]

I just went to court on Tuesday, it went great the Judge dismissed about 3/4 of the cases because the officers didn't bother showing up. Love it!

Great waste of our tax dollars...