Endurance Event at TMP

[toastman]

actually that was considered
those entries can use a gps

It looks like a lot of possible situations that weren't considered.

[Dj Eclipse]

actually that was considered
those entries can use a gps

You have GPS units for use to use or do we have to supply our own?

How accurate is GPS? Is it accurate enough to calculate distance on a tight track like Cayuga? I've never used the odometer feature on one before.

[wmcphee89]

What I'm most concerned about is tmps past track record, now they throw out there a good Idea to see if anyone bites, and we all have very valid concerns and no one from tmp is stepping up to answer any of these questions, toastman is helping with a little feedback,in regards to minor machine question, what about the legal aspect! What about the safety aspect? I'm not raining on a parade I'd be interested in attending IF I knew more! But to me it looks like the idea was thought up but not thought threw IMO ! Where is Vanessa from tmp and why are none of our questions being answered!

[eastcoast_gsx]

What I'm most concerned about is tmps past track record, now they throw out there a good Idea to see if anyone bites, and we all have very valid concerns and no one from tmp is stepping up to answer any of these questions, toastman is helping with a little feedback,in regards to minor machine question, what about the legal aspect! What about the safety aspect? I'm not raining on a parade I'd be interested in attending IF I knew more! But to me it looks like the idea was thought up but not thought threw IMO ! Where is Vanessa from tmp and why are none of our questions being answered!

TMP is doing a decent job of winning back customers respect and trust....

I would simply hate to see it all thrown away because of a disaster that could result from not crossing the T's and dotting the I's.

[wmcphee89]

I feel the same way, I think its a great idea and I'd go knowing my safety wasn't going to be a concern! Minus the normal risk associated with racing!

[toastman]

use your own gps
gps will be at least as accurate as the speedo

This event was scheduled the same weekend as regional races for a reason - we are looking for non-racers.
People that are normal track riders that want something different
If you make a poor pass you will get a black flag and sit out 10 minutes
No trading paint, no stuffing
Same rules as a regular track day

Donald

You have GPS units for use to use or do we have to supply our own?

How accurate is GPS? Is it accurate enough to calculate distance on a tight track like Cayuga? I've never used the odometer feature on one before.

[kneedragger88]

I have a little endurance experience its actually all I do anymore. Anyone intrerested in seeing how it works should come out to Mosport tommorrow. The VRRA is doing a two hour. A fresh set of tires will make it easy. We run one set for a 3hour at Daytona for the past two years no problem. Jimmy Felice and Springer actually did an 8 hour on a set of Pirelli Dots in the first Moto-ST race. As for speed differences hellya there will be some, but in endurance racing there is a saying. "You cant win a race in a single corner but you can sure lose one". You just have to ride smart and pass when it is easy dont rush a pass. Tommorrow I will be riding a OWO1 and we will be out there with P1 Honda 350s try that on for a speed differential .It does not have to be that big an issue as Cayuga is a slow track.Fueling is a serious issue we have had a few issues this season with fires. Every pit should have a fire bottle and someone holding it when fueling. You should be off the bike and shut it off. This is just stuff I have seen both as a rider and an organizer. I actually ran two at Shanny a few years ago. Funny my first ever endurance race was at Cayuga the weekend after 9/11 with RACE it was a blast. We crashed lost ten laps and still finished second
I was already talking with toastman. I would love to use this for a race length practice for our team and wanted to make sure we wouldnt be stepping on any toes. Its a great opportunity and hats off to them for doing it. I have already expressed to him that we are not interested in the prize and likely wont even keep score. Just figure its a little over the top as our bike is already set-up for this stuff with dry break dump cans and on board radios etc.
I have a few questions. Will we be using the pit out into T1? Likely be far safer.
Pit speed limit? Hot Pit access controlled?
My recommendation to newbie endurance guys.
Ride 80% and stay out as long as possible.
Pass smart and dont force a pass to gain ten feet of track position.
Start on fresh rubber.
Have a pit plan (who has can,extinguisher,stand etc.)
Make sure your bike is 100% ready, adjust and lube the chain.
Get a Pit board and use it.
If you find yourself mentally wandering get off the bike cause you will go down.
Have fun. Endurance racing (or lapping what ever is PC in relation to this thread) is a blast.

[toastman]

T1 is going to be the entrance
pit lane speed is 30km/h in first gear
you will have to come to a stop before going to your pits so that the head marshall can talk to you if need be.

any more questions?

I have a few questions. Will we be using the pit out into T1? Likely be far safer.
Pit speed limit? Hot Pit access controlled?
My recommendation to newbie endurance guys.
Ride 80% and stay out as long as possible.
Pass smart and dont force a pass to gain ten feet of track position.
Start on fresh rubber.
Have a pit plan (who has can,extinguisher,stand etc.)
Make sure your bike is 100% ready, adjust and lube the chain.
Get a Pit board and use it.
If you find yourself mentally wandering get off the bike cause you will go down.
Have fun. Endurance racing (or lapping what ever is PC in relation to this thread) is a blast.[/QUOTE]

[Grimmy]

Even though much thought was put into it, it still is a race. As no governing body is supporting it, the track insurance is null and void. If someone is injured, TMP will be fully liable, with no backing from its insurance company. In turn, the injured individual will have no proper avenue for compensation or liability recovery. If you get hurt, you are on your own. Lost wages, long term care etc etc are your problem. Further, as far as I know, proper marshaling still is not present. Some semi-experienced volunteers have come forward to assist, but CRCA marshals as far as I know are still not being hired.

Someone mentioned that TMP is turning things around. TMP run track days are still a mess. The only way that TMP was able to get full or near full days was to bring on third party groups and individuals to use third party branding and their experience. TMP has made little effort, nor made any progress in their own trackdays, specifically those being run by TMP directly without third party support.

[toastman]

TMP is looking into their insurance to see if it covers this event
They have a policy that covers racing at the dragstrip for 300mph cars, but at present it is unkown if it will cover this event.

TMP no longer runs their own track days to my knowledge. They have people do it for them.
TMP understands that letting experienced organizers run their days is a good thing.

Have you been there during a GWB day?

As for getting hurt and lost wages- That's part of the game of riding on the track.
When did the track pay anyone when they fall off their bike?

Donald

Even though much thought was put into it, it still is a race. As no governing body is supporting it, the track insurance is null and void. If someone is injured, TMP will be fully liable, with no backing from its insurance company. In turn, the injured individual will have no proper avenue for compensation or liability recovery. If you get hurt, you are on your own. Lost wages, long term care etc etc are your problem. Further, as far as I know, proper marshaling still is not present. Some semi-experienced volunteers have come forward to assist, but CRCA marshals as far as I know are still not being hired.

Someone mentioned that TMP is turning things around. TMP run track days are still a mess. The only way that TMP was able to get full or near full days was to bring on third party groups and individuals to use third party branding and their experience. TMP has made little effort, nor made any progress in their own trackdays, specifically those being run by TMP directly without third party support.

[ManoWar]

Even though much thought was put into it, it still is a race. As no governing body is supporting it, the track insurance is null and void. If someone is injured, TMP will be fully liable, with no backing from its insurance company. In turn, the injured individual will have no proper avenue for compensation or liability recovery. If you get hurt, you are on your own. Lost wages, long term care etc etc are your problem.

This is one of the main problems this country has, no one is ready to take responsibility for their actions. If i crash in a race why would i wanna sue the organizers, it was my right wrist that caused the accident to begin with, i think a lawyer assisted waiver signed by all competitors should cover TMP.

Do you honestly plan on suing if you go down?

If so tell me so i can stay as far away as possible on the track!

[wmcphee89]

There are other liabilitys other then "falling off" track conditions that render it not safe, then they would be liable, for example! they open the track to the public remember! Simple principals apply! Same as they have now changed the add from a "race" to an "event" which will take out a huge chunk of liability! Now its back to a public skate on bikes with use at own risk, as you would at a local hockey arena for a public skate! If you fall your liable! If you fall cuz they forgot ice, they are liable
Simple principal I know, but if your like me, explain it to me like I'm a child, then its easier to understand

This is one of the main problems this country has, no one is ready to take responsibility for their actions. If i crash in a race why would i wanna sue the organizers, it was my right wrist that caused the accident to begin with, i think a lawyer assisted waiver signed by all competitors should cover TMP.

Do you honestly plan on suing if you go down?

If so tell me so i can stay as far away as possible on the track!

[NiteshadeTA]

TMP is looking into their insurance to see if it covers this event
They have a policy that covers racing at the dragstrip for 300mph cars, but at present it is unkown if it will cover this event.

TMP no longer runs their own track days to my knowledge. They have people do it for them.
TMP understands that letting experienced organizers run their days is a good thing.

Have you been there during a GWB day?

As for getting hurt and lost wages- That's part of the game of riding on the track.
When did the track pay anyone when they fall off their bike?

Donald

The funny part is GWB is the scapegoat TMP is looking for. If someone severely injuries themselves or dies, and sues, then TMP can just point the finger to GWB and say "They were the ones running it". Maybe you didn't see that. Maybe you did.

Everyone who participates in a trackday/race event assumes a certain amount of risk/liability. However in cases of negligence, no waiver of insurance policy can protect someone from a lawsuit. In TMP's case, they have been warned mutiple times by multiple people (just do a search on this board for examples) of outstanding safety issues. Should a person heavily injure themselves due to one of those issues, it is not a far cry to argue the organizers/owners are personally liable for negligence. This includes GWB for not enforcing them either.

As for insurance for 300 MPH cars etc? Well, that is 300 mph cars with roll cages and safety equipment travelling in the same direction with no turns. This is not even remotely the same as motorcycles with no roll cage, some leather and armor, oh, and in turns at some speed. Apples to apples , oranges to oranges. The insurance company will see the difference.

TMP ran at least one trackday this year without a separate body helping them. Uli ran it early in the season and the turnout was crap.

My biggest concern in this case, is that it is a race. Straight up, no way to dodge it.

A race with a target audience of non-racers.
A race with no sanctioning body.
In an endurance race.
With NOVICE racers.
With Novice organizers.
With Novice marshals.

I see a catastrophe. If you did even more than a "man hour" of thought, you would have come to the same conclusion.

Nites

[Y2KR1]

I was told about this event at the Aug. 4th lapping day. If it was on a different day (not on the National weekend) I would seriously consider to come out and do it with my buddy/long time rider Rob just for fun. We figure we could run a mid 1:20's average for 3 hours, 6 rider changes with 2 refuelings and one set of new tires. My guess would be 115-119 Laps would be possible with no Red Flags.

They may get Racers as the Aug 28-31 weekend at Shannonville is a National race not a Regional Race.

I think TMP has done a good job improving things this year. I hope to see it continue. I would like to see them hold a real race. It has been my proving ground and test track of choice for this race season. I have to give them credit for bringing in groups to run the days and providing items to improve the site, control and communication.

For the average person it is a great way to come out and try track riding at a low cost.

[minifig-phil]

It is a fun track It has lots of variety of different typs of corners.
I think you could do 3 hours on 1 set with out a problem.

Not having a Hot Pit lane could be a huge problem.

At the Wera National Endurance Series every team had to provided there own score keeper at least thats how they did it 10 years ago.

I wonder if my 250 would go 3 hours? I too think we could do 1:19-1:20's all day.

[toastman]

a hot pit lane with restricted access has been mapped out

It is a fun track It has lots of variety of different typs of corners.
I think you could do 3 hours on 1 set with out a problem.

Not having a Hot Pit lane could be a huge problem.

At the Wera National Endurance Series every team had to provided there own score keeper at least thats how they did it 10 years ago.

I wonder if my 250 would go 3 hours? I too think we could do 1:19-1:20's all day.

[TMPracing]

Toronto Motorsports Park has hired a number of qualified professionals to assist us in providing you with the best possible experience for your lapping day. All of our open wheel, car lapping and motorcycle events that are held on the road course are run by qualified and trained professionals to work in their area of expertise.

TMP’s offers two programs for motorcycles on the road course. Guys with Bikes offers a program and Jeff Bolt offers another program. Whether you are participating in Gerry Low's ADT Lapping with your car or GWB Motorcycle Lapping they are all TMP events run by TMP professionals. A lot of long hours and team work from everyone involved has gone into putting the programs together and making considerable improvements for the riders.

As for the GWB Endurance Race on August 30, whether you want to call it a race, or an event – TMP does not require a sanctioned body to be able to hold this event and this event is covered by our insurance policy.

[eastcoast_gsx]

Toronto Motorsports Park has hired a number of qualified professionals to assist us in providing you with the best possible experience for your lapping day. All of our open wheel, car lapping and motorcycle events that are held on the road course are run by qualified and trained professionals to work in their area of expertise.

TMP’s offers two programs for motorcycles on the road course. Guys with Bikes offers a program and Jeff Bolt offers another program. Whether you are participating in Gerry Low's ADT Lapping with your car or GWB Motorcycle Lapping they are all TMP events run by TMP professionals. A lot of long hours and team work from everyone involved has gone into putting the programs together and making considerable improvements for the riders.

As for the GWB Endurance Race on August 30, whether you want to call it a race, or an event – TMP does not require a sanctioned body to be able to hold this event and this event is covered by our insurance policy.

There you have it folks.

It sounding better with every post from GWB and TMP.

Should be a good event. You guys should put together a quick sheet with the do's and dont's and distribute it to the teams and the spectators for this one. Keep things very clear of what is expected of all involved.

[Grimmy]

TMP is looking into their insurance to see if it covers this event
They have a policy that covers racing at the dragstrip for 300mph cars, but at present it is unkown if it will cover this event.

TMP no longer runs their own track days to my knowledge. They have people do it for them.
TMP understands that letting experienced organizers run their days is a good thing.

Have you been there during a GWB day?

As for getting hurt and lost wages- That's part of the game of riding on the track.
When did the track pay anyone when they fall off their bike?

Donald

As for getting hurt, its all relative. A bunch of untrained (even though some are very talented) people racing on a track with little or no schooling creates a difficult and unpredictable scenario for each and every rider. A race license and levels for skill, help to ensure that traffic is of equal or similar skill level, and that all know what to do in different scenarios.

If one shows up to a track and races, and a complete rookie looking for some extra track time torpedo's another rider, who is is liable? The rider that caused the accident, the track for allowing that rider into a race situation with no evaluation of skill level, or both?

This is regarding a race scenario, not a trackday. Racing involves riding at an elevated pace, with aggressive riding styles. It is known and agreed that trackdays (for the most part) are a bit tamer in riding ethics.

Have I been to a GWB day? No. PIMP days yes, but a GWB day should not be any different from a TMP day should it? As noted, TMP has a bunch of professionals working for it. GWB is a seperate entity and is not TMP, and should not be confused as such.

[wmcphee89]

I edited your post a little grimmy to highlight what my concerns are, that still haven't been answered , cuz I fall in the latter of the half, I'm not a racer that has experience in racing scenerios! I am practicing and think this is a good chance for me to get a feel for racing, I would hate to push someone wide and have them crash or worst cuz of my inexperience or vise versa or have someone ruining my evening on the track by racing too aggresivly when it is being sold as a fun day for everyone,
I know it being sold as a fun race event and that's great but I don't feel my safety as a novice is being considered, should I bring a bright orange shirt to give the more experienced racers a heads up?? Or a marker on my tailsection ??
I'm trying to be helpful airing on the side of caution!


A race license and levels for skill, help to ensure that traffic is of equal or similar skill level, and that all know what to do in different scenarios.

If one shows up to a track and races, and a complete rookie looking for some extra track time

This is regarding a race scenario, not a trackday. Racing involves riding at an elevated pace, with aggressive riding styles. It is known and agreed that trackdays (for the most part) are a bit tamer in riding ethics.

Have I been to a GWB day? No. PIMP days yes, but a GWB day should not be any different from a TMP day should it? As noted, TMP has a bunch of professionals working for it. GWB is a seperate entity and is not TMP, and should not be confused as such.[/QUOTE]