How to properly break in a new motorcycle?

[dhtmldude]

How's this oil? Anyone anyone?



It reads: Meets or exceeds API SL/SJ/SG & SF and JASO MA specifications. But its ATV oil................

I think im drowing in a cup of water.

[djltoronto]

How's this oil? Anyone anyone?

It reads: Meets or exceeds API SL/SJ/SG & SF and JASO MA specifications. But its ATV oil................

I think im drowing in a cup of water.

Looks fine, but why not just use motorcycle oil?

Is this for breaking in a new motor? or regular use?
If it's for regular use, why not just use Motul 5100. I'm pretty sure most people have only good things to say about it.

[dhtmldude]

Looks fine, but why not just use motorcycle oil?

Is this for breaking in a new motor? or regular use?
If it's for regular use, why not just use Motul 5100. I'm pretty sure most people have only good things to say about it.

couldnt find any at crappy, and going to a bike shop for oil is inconvenient. 24k motor, regular use. all these frigging jaso ma, js, sf, sg ratings are throwing me off.

[Mariusz]

couldnt find any at crappy, and going to a bike shop for oil is inconvenient. 24k motor, regular use. all these frigging jaso ma, js, sf, sg ratings are throwing me off.

go to a bike store and buy a case of oil then you don't have to worry about it

apparently semi-synth motul is a good way to go for most street riders because it's good oil and gives a little less wear on the clutch then full sunthetic.

[Draiter]

Not so fast. What makes you think they're all that different? The redline is lower, but the components are also much larger. And the stroke is longer. Piston speed is probably pretty close. Oil does three things: creates a "cushion" for bearings, lubricates metal on metal components and dissipates heat. Given the scale of the engine, it could be argued that a large v8 is a more difficult job for an oil than a bike engine. I don't believe that it's apples and oranges. And anyway, what does that have to do with engine break-in?quote

Are you crazy? You are trying to tell me that a 6k redlining engine is under the same forces as a 14k redling engine????? Not even close... Why do you think there has been so much research into the effects motorcycles have on oil? And why do you think there are motorcycle specific oils? Because the the two types of engines perform differently. As for piston speed, irregardless of stroke, a V8's pistons, at 6k RPM are going up and down at a rate of 750 times per minute... an inline 4 in a motorcycle, at 14k RPM, it's pistions are going up and down at a rate of 3500 times per minute, or rougly 5 times faster....

I know that the person who designed the engine in your bike is much more educated about metallurgy, wear patterns, tribology, thermodynamics, the relevant things when it comes to engine behaviour, than Mr. Mototune (who, by the way, has steadily been downgrading the radical treatment he suggests over the last 5 years..he's practically suggesting the same procedure as the manual now, quite different than what he was suggesting in the past..), anybody on here who has rebuilt a motor and 99% of anyone who suggests what the proper break-in procedure is.

Really??? And how do you know this? I don't remember mentioned Mr. Mototune.... Are you going to suggest that the engine builders in Nascar, which are NOT factory, are not as educated as those building the motorcycle engines? LOL.... That's ridiculous. Similarly, explain to me, if you will, how it is that race teams are able to break their engines in, in 2 - 3 hours on a dyno if following the manual is the proper way to go? I would also ask, what makes you "the" expert on engine break in? I have not seen or read anything to suggest he has downgraded his stance on break-in

Listening to people put forth nonsense and pretend it's an argument certainly can hurt. And I'm not suggesting that only the manufacturers know how to break-in engines. I'm saying, they know better than anyone how to break them in. Sure, listen to whomever you want. Go see your mechanic and let him diagnose your heart condition..I'm sure his common sense will work for you.

Who, around here, is putting for nonesense? and who is pretending that it's an arguement? I don't think anyone is.... There are obviously two schools of thought - per manual break in, and ride it hard break in.... Funny though, that even with ALL these advances in engine technology, lubrication and metal alloys that engines are still being broken in in the EXACT same way they were 20 - 30 years ago???? Why is that? That's because the car companies, and motorcycle companines don't want you to think for yourself... surely with all these changes in technology, there would be changes in procedure....
I would beg to disagree with you that the engine manufacturers are the ones that know best.... There are far more knowledgable people working outside the field than there are inside the field.... Look at that guy who built a motorcycle from scratch a number of years ago and POUNDED the factory teams....

Go see your mechanic and let him diagnose your heart condition..I'm sure his common sense will work for you.

THAT has to be the DUMBEST thing I have ever heard.... Using something like that to back up your arguement???? Com'on now... that's just stupid... that right there shows me, that debating with you is a waste of time.

As far as breaking in an engine on a dyno and race teams, I am well aware that they know what they're doing. They get direct factory support and education. Not only that, their break-in procedure is very controlled, heat-cycling (which is more important that anything else by the way), rpm, load, throttle.

Sorry bud, but not all racing teams are factory supported.... and yes they know what they're dong and they DON'T work for the manufacturers... you just contradicted your OWN arguement.... Sooooo, if I took the engine out of a brand new bike, and broke it in on a dyno.... would I still have to follow the manual? NOPE, I would... which shows you the manual is NOT the best way to break in an engine... Breaking in an engine on a dyno is far more like the ride it like you stole it, than it is like the manual...

Anyway you look at it... break it in the way you want to... It's under warranty...

[estone]

Just fanning the flames here, but this whole ride it like you stole it vs. break in like the manual approach arguements - collectively are we talking about the motor performing better in the long run? As in 20K down the road vs. 50K down the road?

If it's a horsepower debate, are we talking 1 to 2 hp? Or is it more like 10 to 20?

Better yet, define 'performing better'?

Putting things in perspective here, I really think it's what you feel safe with. What the manual tells you, vs. what the 'mechanic/engine builder community' tells you, and whether it's worth that extra 2 hp.

[djltoronto]

Just fanning the flames here, but this whole ride it like you stole it vs. break in like the manual approach arguements - collectively are we talking about the motor performing better in the long run? As in 20K down the road vs. 50K down the road?

If it's a horsepower debate, are we talking 1 to 2 hp? Or is it more like 10 to 20?

Better yet, define 'performing better'?

Putting things in perspective here, I really think it's what you feel safe with. What the manual tells you, vs. what the 'mechanic/engine builder community' tells you, and whether it's worth that extra 2 hp.

My only concern during break in is longevity, cause I don't wanna rebuilt it again anytime soon just for fun!

[murf]

[QUOTE=Draiter;528794]Are you crazy? You are trying to tell me that a 6k redlining engine is under the same forces as a 14k redling engine????? Not even close... Why do you think there has been so much research into the effects motorcycles have on oil? And why do you think there are motorcycle specific oils? Because the the two types of engines perform differently. As for piston speed, irregardless of stroke, a V8's pistons, at 6k RPM are going up and down at a rate of 750 times per minute... an inline 4 in a motorcycle, at 14k RPM, it's pistions are going up and down at a rate of 3500 times per minute, or rougly 5 times faster....

[QUOTE]

14k is not 5 times that of 6k !!!!
Stroke and time (rpm) has everything to do with piston velocity. They are similar and the biggest difference is the oil in the transmision on the bike.

[invictus43]

Are you crazy? You are trying to tell me that a 6k redlining engine is under the same forces as a 14k redling engine????? Not even close... Why do you think there has been so much research into the effects motorcycles have on oil? And why do you think there are motorcycle specific oils? Because the the two types of engines perform differently. As for piston speed, irregardless of stroke, a V8's pistons, at 6k RPM are going up and down at a rate of 750 times per minute... an inline 4 in a motorcycle, at 14k RPM, it's pistions are going up and down at a rate of 3500 times per minute, or rougly 5 times faster....

Ok..I'm not going to respond to the rest of your post because you don't have much knowledge on this and I don't have much time. Let me just demonstrate..something has to move 1" in a given time, say 1 second. If you then want to move something 2" in the same amount of time, it must move twice as quickly. Bikes have a very small stroke compared to a Corvette. The Corvette piston is moving twice as far as a bike piston, therefore, either it moves twice as fast or not as often.

[invictus43]

14k is not 5 times that of 6k !!!!
Stroke and time (rpm) has everything to do with piston velocity. They are similar and the biggest difference is the oil in the transmision on the bike.

Exactly.

[invictus43]

Putting things in perspective here, I really think it's what you feel safe with. What the manual tells you, vs. what the 'mechanic/engine builder community' tells you, and whether it's worth that extra 2 hp.

My point exactly. I'm not claiming I know everything about breaking in engines. Quite the opposite, I DON'T know..and I'm comfortable with that. What I disagree with is people with a little bit of knowledge perpetuating myths. I'm saying, read the manual and let the people who designed your bike tell you how to break it in.

By the way, if you read your manual, it likely doesn't say anything about babying it. It says something to the effect of "avoid prolonged use above 7000rpm for the first 1000kms." To me that means redline it if you like, just don't ride it at 8000rpm for 20kms at a time.

[djltoronto]

Just for kicks..

Here is what my '96 Gixxer manual says for breakin in:


Keep in mind though, that this is the same OEM manual that tells me to chang the oil filter every 3rd oil change!

[Draiter]

14k is not 5 times that of 6k !!!!
Stroke and time (rpm) has everything to do with piston velocity. They are similar and the biggest difference is the oil in the transmision on the bike.

Ok..I'm not going to respond to the rest of your post because you don't have much knowledge on this and I don't have much time. Let me just demonstrate..something has to move 1" in a given time, say 1 second. If you then want to move something 2" in the same amount of time, it must move twice as quickly. Bikes have a very small stroke compared to a Corvette. The Corvette piston is moving twice as far as a bike piston, therefore, either it moves twice as fast or not as often.

First things first, you should actually read what I read... LOL... Let me let you in a little secret... RPM Revs Per Minute has to do with the total number of cylinders in the engine, as well as the distance travelled... So if you have an 8 cylinder engine running at 6000 RPMS.. that's 8 cylinders combined to make up the 6000 RPMS, if you have 4 cylinders making up an engine and you are still running at 6000 RPMS those pistions in those cylinders are now moving much faster.. Consider that a typical corvette C5 lets say has a stoke of 3.4 inches and a typical 1000cc inline-4 has stroke of about 2.76 inches..... Hmmmmm, something tells me that is NOT twice as long..... Thus, stroke....# of cylinders, and RPM are all factors....
Now, if you actually go back and read what I typed... I said

"Are you crazy? You are trying to tell me that a 6k redlining engine is under the same forces as a 14k redling engine????? Not even close... Why do you think there has been so much research into the effects motorcycles have on oil? And why do you think there are motorcycle specific oils? Because the the two types of engines perform differently. "

Thanks, I'm done.

[invictus43]

First things first, you should actually read what I read... LOL... Let me let you in a little secret... RPM Revs Per Minute has to do with the total number of cylinders in the engine, as well as the distance travelled... So if you have an 8 cylinder engine running at 6000 RPMS.. that's 8 cylinders combined to make up the 6000 RPMS, if you have 4 cylinders making up an engine and you are still running at 6000 RPMS those pistions in those cylinders are now moving much faster.. Consider that a typical corvette C5 lets say has a stoke of 3.4 inches and a typical 1000cc inline-4 has stroke of about 2.76 inches..... Hmmmmm, something tells me that is NOT twice as long..... Thus, stroke....# of cylinders, and RPM are all factors....

Are you saying that in an inline 4, the pistons are going twice as fast at a given rpm because there are half as many pistons??? Let me let YOU in on a little secret: number of pistons has nothing to do with piston speed for a given rpm. And your stroke numbers are a little slanted towards your side. Stroke for the LS1 and 2 engines is 3.67"..for the GSXR-1000, a long-stroke bike engine, the stroke is 2.32". Granted, it's not double for the Vette, but also consider the size and weight of the piston. The side loads on the piston are higher than in a bike engine. The redline on the LS2 is 6500rpm, on the GSXR it's 12,000 rpm.

On top of all that, the bike components weigh much less. The load on the bearings is lower which allows the higher rpm. And remember, you can use the same oil in your bike that you use in your car. And have no problems. I would guess that means the bike doesn't place much higher demands on the oil than the car does.

[djltoronto]

RPM Revs Per Minute has to do with the total number of cylinders in the engine...So if you have an 8 cylinder engine running at 6000 RPMS.. that's 8 cylinders combined to make up the 6000 RPMS, if you have 4 cylinders making up an engine and you are still running at 6000 RPMS those pistions in those cylinders are now moving much faster

This isn't my arguemnt, and you are both strangers to me, but you can't just mislead people . I would usually stay well away from these type of arguments, but this is just plain wrong.

NO and NO. What you have written here is 100% FLASE.

To set the record straight.

• Engine RPM is the RPM of the CRANK. (1 piston or 12 pistons, doesn't matter).
• actual piston speed (velocity) in an american V8 at 6000 RPM would be much faster than the actual piston speed (linear velocity) of an oversquare sportbike AT THE SAME RPM.
• An oversquare sportbike engine at 14,000 RPM does not necessarily have a greater piston speed (linear) than an Amercian V8 at 6000 rpm due to the exceptionally short throw of the crank (Anyone could easily do the math to see this) - see next point
• Who cares about actual linear piston speed?

Draiter, not picking on you, but you did post pure falseness.

[invictus43]

Just for kicks..

Here is what my '96 Gixxer manual says for breakin in:

My R6 manual says avoid prolonged operation over 8,000 rpm for the first 1000kms, and over 10,000rpm for the next 600kms. That's pretty liberal I'd say. That's pretty much "let'er rip"!

[johnp]

My Kawi ZZR600 break in says:

distance travelled ********max engine speed
0 - 800KM *********** 4000
800 - 1600km ************* 6000

Weird that the manufacturers themselves can't seem to agree.

Sorry guys I can't seem to make the table line up.

[invictus43]

My Kawi ZZR600 break in says:

distance travelled max engine speed
0 - 800KM 4000
800 - 1600km 6000

Weird that the manufacturers themselves can't seem to agree.

Well, it depends on a bunch of different things. That's the point I'm trying to make. You can't apply your break-in rpm to a Chevy V8. They're entirely different motors. Even between 600cc bikes the motors are different..different sleeve materials, piston ring tensions, cam profiles. It's like saying all 600cc bikes should be using 10w40 oil. That's just not the case. They may have different design parameters requiring different oils. Trust your manual.

[djltoronto]

My Kawi ZZR600 break in says:

distance travelled ********max engine speed
0 - 800KM *********** 4000
800 - 1600km ************* 6000

Weird that the manufacturers themselves can't seem to agree.

Sorry guys I can't seem to make the table line up.

The manufacturers probably do agree (or close anyway). They will agree very closely on the percentage less than redline.

The R6 has a higher redline than my 750, and your ZZR600 will have a lower redline than my 750.

it's all relative (or close to it).

[invictus43]

[*]Who cares about actual linear piston speed?Draiter, not picking on you, but you did post pure falseness.

I only mention linear piston speed because the oil is required to lube the sleeve and piston. If the piston speed is higher, more heat is generated and the oil is required to do more work. On a V8, you have a really big piston going a long way in a short period of time. The speed at mid stroke is probably pretty high, maybe as high as a 1000cc bike engine. The formula is fairly simple..just don't have it on hand. Really though, rpm is limited by flame front travel time versus distance and acceleration loads on the piston, rods and crank.

EDIT: I just computed it..3.67" stroke at 6500rpm, max piston speed is 1211m/s. 2.32" stroke at 12000rpm, max piston speed is 1400m/s. So they're in the same ballpark. Consider side loading for a bigger piston and you're looking at similar systems.