Yank gets a Bill 203 Lesson

[Rob MacLennan]

Nobody has ever spent overnite in jail on a trumped up charge with no legal representation?

Sure, it happens, but when you get to court you have the option of representation. My sister is one of the people who provides it

[inreb]

"Sure it happens" So it's parallel then? One nite in jail if you're innocent is no biggie? Hey, I understand you're position and applaud your efforts to push back. I also recognize that it is a big bad world out there and fairness can be pushed aside in the immediate interest of the greater good.

[Rob MacLennan]

"Sure it happens" So it's parallel then? One nite in jail if you're innocent is no biggie? Hey, I understand you're position and applaud your efforts to push back. I also recognize that it is a big bad world out there and fairness can be pushed aside in the immediate interest of the greater good.

It still has no parallel to being judged and punished at the side of the road. A night in jail until the courts are open to have you arraigned? That's common, accepted practise and has been since the days of the old English Common Law.

[inreb]

As you know, the law is an ever changing organism designed to meet new demands as they appear. One day, far into the future, having your car impounded at the side of the road for being a dick will be old English Common Law. Or not. Hey, I'm just a grade ten drop out gasping for air here. Carry on sir.

[ddusseld]

I think it is a different set of circumstances. Your example is a mistake of justice. Something happened that should not have happened. This would not be the norm. Bill 203 is the law. There is no mistake of justice. You may be innocent or guilty but you are treated the same. This is the norm under bill 203.

"Sure it happens" So it's parallel then? One nite in jail if you're innocent is no biggie? Hey, I understand you're position and applaud your efforts to push back. I also recognize that it is a big bad world out there and fairness can be pushed aside in the immediate interest of the greater good.

[ddusseld]

Rob,

Although you generally give good examples I find this one not so hot. The classic just because it is common does not make it right...

As inreb says, will bill 203 become common practise and therefore ok?

It still has no parallel to being judged and punished at the side of the road. A night in jail until the courts are open to have you arraigned? That's common, accepted practise and has been since the days of the old English Common Law.

[inreb]

The circumstances may be different, but my original arguement was and still is: the precedent has already been set where a person is punished before he has had a fair trial. For better or for worse it's an unfortunate and seemingly unavoidable component of the human condition. 203 is a drastict measure and I don't support it. Maybe the question should be turned around: at what point would you step in with draconian measures to forward your agenda.

[Rob MacLennan]

Rob,

Although you generally give good examples I find this one not so hot. The classic just because it is common does not make it right...

As inreb says, will bill 203 become common practise and therefore ok?

Being put in jail overnight, until you can appear before a judge, is part of due process when you have been apprehended on a criminal charge. Losing your license privileges and vehicle for a week PRECEDES due process.

[inreb]

Admittedly, I didn't go over 203 with a fine toothed comb but this is a little unsettling. Am I to understand that my driving privilages and car can be taken away for just driving down the street at the posted speed limit minding my own business? Wow! That's like walking down the street minding my own business and getting fingered for a rape I didn't commit and spending the next (insert time) in jail watching my back until due process sees fit to release me (or not) to await trial. This due process doesn't sound so hot all of a sudden. But that's the way it's always been done (English Commen Law, as I am learning), so that's good enough for me.

[ddusseld]

I find this an interesting distinction.

In either case you are punished before seeing a judge or being able to defend yourself. To me the difference comes down to the severity of the crime.

Are either results just?

Being put in jail overnight, until you can appear before a judge, is part of due process when you have been apprehended on a criminal charge. Losing your license privileges and vehicle for a week PRECEDES due process.

[82Seca750]

Admittedly, I didn't go over 203 with a fine toothed comb but this is a little unsettling. Am I to understand that my driving privilages and car can be taken away for just driving down the street at the posted speed limit minding my own business? Wow! That's like walking down the street minding my own business and getting fingered for a rape I didn't commit and spending the next (insert time) in jail watching my back until due process sees fit to release me (or not) to await trial. This due process doesn't sound so hot all of a sudden. But that's the way it's always been done (English Commen Law, as I am learning), so that's good enough for me.

you're stretching the limits to suit your argument

203 will plant your *** for one week....no questions asked...you are done....car and licence gone......all from the discretion of a roadside cop.....and yes....I could be driving my heavily modified Mustang down the street breaking no law in sight....and yet I'm targetted by the label of the legislation......and I have no immediate recourse....I'm done

if the law for criminal behavior and charges legislated that if accused, you would be jailed for one week...no questions asked, at the discretion of an onsight officer...all freakin hell would break loose

so.....why does the HTA have the wherewithall to be so draconian when criminal law wouldn't go nowhere near that sort of injustice?

apparently because they can

[inreb]

"you're stretching the limits to suit your argument" yes I am. Today is pretend to be lawyer day.

[Team Lazy]

I have to add a bit of context to this here.
The Charter of Rights and Freedoms supercedes everything. Next comes the Criminal Code, then Provincial Offences, then local Bylaws etc.
The important issues are always held up to the Charter. You're really comparing apples to oranges here. You guys are comparing a person having their licence and vehicle taken away to having your freedom taken away (jail). Totally different.

Nobody is going to win a Charter argument that they have a RIGHT to a drivers licence. Period. And I don't care who the next guy to post is saying his drivers licence is a right, it's not. Period. Read the Charter. It's not there. But the Charter does protect freedom, and property from being seized. The issue of a car or bike being seized is where this law will likely fail. It's reduntant and punitive to take away both the license (privilege) and the means (vehicle). It's just not required, and when the courts see it as nothing more than a punishment prior to conviction, this part will stop. Even a drunk can call a buddy to come pick up the car usually to avoid the tow and impound.

The issue of spending a night in jail weighs the freedom and Charter rights against those of society. When the police have reasonable grounds to believe that your freedom needs to be taken away for certain reasons in order to protect the public, certain people, compel you to come to court, whatever, you are spending the night. It's the way it works, and despite the one in a million shot of somebody wrongfully spending the night, countless lives have likely been saved by bad guys spending the night in jail before seeing the judge. Don't cry me the river of poor little Johnny all innocent as a sheep spending the night undeservedly and innocently. That's BS. The jails are full of innocent people. Just ask them.

[inreb]

Team Lazy - you were a real good roll until the bit about one in a million. You don't actually believe that? Ever heard of false domestic violence accusations? False child molestation accusations? Let me reiterate, I know there are many voices here, I don't support 203. The simple points I'm making are: innocent people can be and are punished in whatever form in the interest of the greater good. Mistakes are made. Tough luck. So in that vein, when the Fantino's of the world see you speeding down the road they want to get you off the road NOW! To anybody that's paying attention it should be quite obvious that I'm just a layman but I refuse to put the blinders on. I like to understand the root cause. You have to consider, Fantino has his backers and they are not all idiots, that's just to simple, IMHO.

[Dj Eclipse]

There was a Chemistry professor in a large college that had some exchange students in the class. One day while the class was in the lab the professor noticed one young man (an exchange student) who kept rubbing his back and stretching as if his back hurt. The professor asked the young man what was the matter.

The student told him he had a bullet lodged in his back. He had been shot while fighting communists in his native country who were trying to overthrow his country's government and install a new communist government. In the midst of his story he looked at the professor and asked 'Do you know how to catch wild pigs?'
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The professor thought it was a joke and asked for the punch line.
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The young man said this was no joke. 'You catch wild pigs by finding a suitable place in the woods and putting corn on the ground. The pigs find it and begin to come everyday to eat the free corn. When they are used to coming every day, you put a fence down one side of the place where they are used to coming. When they get used to the fence, they begin to eat the corn again and you put up another side of the fence.
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They get used to that and start to eat again. You continue until you have all four sides of the fence up with a gate in the last side. The pigs, who are used to the free corn, start to come through the gate to eat, you slam the gate on them and catch the whole herd.
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Suddenly the wild pigs have lost their freedom. They run around
and around inside the fence, but they are caught. Soon they go back to eating the free corn. They are so used to it that they have forgotten how to forage in the woods for themselves, so they accept their captivity.