Ontario Driving Schools - Lip Service

[eastcoast_gsx]

Apparently those who have not taken the BS courses have been unfairly punished by the insurance industry

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...ory/Front/home

The Insurance Industry may take some heat over this.

I guess there is the chance that the most terrible drivers are doing these courses to try and get their license, and they simply run through so many bad drivers that it is simply a play on numbers?

I like this comment:

Bob ImamI from Canada writes: I suspected as much. And all the insurance companies piled on and penalized drivers who didn't take these lame courses.

I pay the higher rate for my son. We ignored the course, paid the higher fees and saved time and inconvenience taking a course that doesn't do anything.

It was a scam when it started. It is a scam now. Bad drivers don't become good drivers by taking a course. Good drivers don't need the course.

Bad drivers who take the course think they are invincible.... a very deadly combination.

This statistic needs to sent by registered mail to all the Insurance companies so that a class action law suit can be filed should they charge different rates to people who don't take the course and argue that it is because people who take course are better drivers.

[GIXXXXXER]

insurance companies are like the government, they get away with murder and theres nothing we can do about it.

[Rob MacLennan]

There are two ways to take the data. The first is to consider that training has some sort of detrimental effect on students, making them predisposed to crashing. I reject that notion. It isn't logical that a course giving you training and practical experience on the road would make you MORE likely to have a collision.

The second possibility is far more reasonable; that people realize that they suck at driving, so they get training. This would mean that those with poor native skill would be over represented in the "trained" driver data. Add to that the people who get a fake driving school recommendation in order to get their license without being qualified, and you have a real mess that doesn't follow what most would consider statistical logic.

Ultimately, I would posit that the insurance companies are experiencing a savings in pay-outs, by poor drivers having a higher level of experience.

[matthew]

driving school teaches how to pass the drivers test, not how to drive properly

[FiReSTaRT]

driving school teaches how to pass the drivers test, not how to drive properly

90% of my driving now is based on what I've learned in driver training. It was a small school on Lakeshore and the instructor gave us the right information both in the classroom and on the road. I've been driving for about a decade, put on close to 300,000km on 3 continents, operated all kinds of vehicles from scooters to pickup trucks to airplanes and still consciously use the lessons I picked up in training. Ofcourse, the purpose for me taking it was to get my G2 A.S.A.P., since I didn't need any training and was the best driver ever (you know how it is when you're in your mid teens lol).
The bottom line is that you have people who show up to learn or people decide that the guy knows what he's talking about and take something from the course. Unfortunately you also have thousands upon thousands of dumbasses, but they'll never learn, no matter how you try to teach'em.

[Jayv]

I still believe the driver and riding test in Canada is a joke, far too easy to pass. I think Cornflakes would come close to doing a better job handing out driver licenses.

[eastcoast_gsx]

The second possibility is far more reasonable; that people realize that they suck at driving, so they get training. This would mean that those with poor native skill would be over represented in the "trained" driver data. Add to that the people who get a fake driving school recommendation in order to get their license without being qualified, and you have a real mess that doesn't follow what most would consider statistical logic.

Ultimately, I would posit that the insurance companies are experiencing a savings in pay-outs, by poor drivers having a higher level of experience.

I would have to say that the above seems more like the situation, (as I said above, run on numbers).

But ultimately, good drivers were peanilized for not doing the courses. I have never did driver training, and I can brake and avoid, use threshold braking (hate ABS) and all the other things that make you a decent driver.

I have had Bike license for 16 years and a bike since I was 16, same with a car when I turned 17, have driven MANY MANY km's all accident free.

Why did I get charged more for INS in the begining then Johnny Jackass that hasn't any clue and did the program just to get his endorsements?

[eastcoast_gsx]

I still believe the driver and riding test in Canada is a joke, far too easy to pass. I think Cornflakes would come close to doing a better job handing out driver licenses.

It is terrible, just look at the last few people on Canada's Worst Driver, how in the hell did these people get their license??

You should have to pass defensive driving tests, and stress driving tests to get your license, course or no course.

[hospital]

I still believe the driver and riding test in Canada is a joke, far too easy to pass. I think Cornflakes would come close to doing a better job handing out driver licenses.

And i thought that was where people got them.
Mmmmmm,i must be wrong.

[Jayv]

And i thought that was where people got them.
Mmmmmm,i must be wrong.

You might be right lol

[TLDeano]

Still lookin for the "Lip Service" on this thread. Sorry my mind's in the gutter again.. Carry on then.

[eastcoast_gsx]

Still lookin for the "Lip Service" on this thread. Sorry my mind's in the gutter again.. Carry on then.

Here

[Scudzo_2]

In either one of the Twist of the Wrist books, or in one of the Proficient Riding books, there's a statistic that shows most motorcycle crashes occur in a riders third year of riding. By that point they're head strong, and have likely moved up to a bigger machine. Could the same thing be said about the M1 exit courses then?

[TBSS_guy]

In Ontario we have MANY issues...

I can't fault people for thinking that driver training adds little to no value to their driving abilities, it is a well known fact that most bad drivers consider themselves to be above average... (I know I do lol) ...but the bottom line is that the system is failing us.

Having taken basic and advanced driver training, as well as the odd racing course, I can honestly attest to the value of proper instruction from a trained, knowledgable, licensed instructor. Unfortunately, except for the licensed part, this skill-set is almost extinct in this province, as it seems the MTO will certify anyone with a pulse as an instructor...

A few of the biggest issues I see are;

- MTO licenses "instructors" who do no understand the physics or driving, proper driving skills, how to teach, driving etiquette and sometimes even what the turn signal stalk or mirrors are used for.

- MTO examiners (in Toronto anyway) are given a maximum number of people they are allowed to fail per day, which is absolutely ludicris... and explains much of the incompetence we see on the road daily.

- The police only enforce the speed limit, as it's the laziest/easiest thing they an do to meet their "performance objective" (formerly known as quota) Police almost never charge people for failing to signal or check blindspots... I find this absolutely ridiculous, as in my opinion speeding (within reason, as long as you're moving with the speed of traffic, i.e. traffic speed +/- 10/20km/h) causes far less accidents than improper lane changes, tailgating, talking on the phone without handsfree, applying makeup, etc). In short, stop paying lip service to "public safety" while only ticketing the "expensive ticket" infractions.

- People with the "It's all about me" attitude who not only don't believe in common courtesy, they actively go out of their way to be discouteous.
(Granted, sometimes it's deserved ...but that is the execption and not the rule).

- Truck drivers licenses for tractor trailers are granted to people who have never driven a tractor trailer. This is not a mistake, this the way the course is designed... Scary stuff...

The only answers I see are to completely revamp the system.

- New, stringent, testing standards for all drivers, instructors and examiners
- Eliminating the 2 tier society effect of off-duty police, fire and ambulance staff being above traffic laws.
- 5 year re-tests for ALL drivers, not just people over 80
- Police who actually enforce ALL the laws, not just convenient ones
- Higher fines for "professional drivers" who break the law
(Truck drivers, bus drivers, taxi/limo drivers, driving instructors, POLICE when lights and siren are not on, etc. These people should be setting an example, not creating new lows as they are today)
- Updating the demerit point system to reflect what *actually* causes accidents, not just turning every offence known to man into "street-racing" a la Bill 203...

Just my 2 cents...

[suprPHREAK]

What I would like to see:

2-tier licence, one for highway use, the other without. Have it cover rules specific for the highway, and with specific testing. Update to add things like in Europe, with left blinker always on in left lane. This would increase safety, and allow the speed to be increased as well. Also, more income for govt, because of a new testing level. Also increased revenue for when drivers want to upgrade their licence. (think of it like the LSM for scooters).

Mandatory written re-test every time you renew your license (every 5 years). By passing it, you are declaring you KNOW the rules. Therefore, fines can be increased, and a zero-tolerance policy can be applied for all infractions, with no excuse of "i didnt know" If you fail, you must retest after a cooling period.

Driving instructors have to have minimum 10 years of at-fault incident free driving. No speeding, no accidents, no unpaid fines. Failure to meet this criteria, you cannot be an instructor. if you obey the rules you teach, this will not be a problem

Mandatory winter-specific testing.

Banning of mobile device use while driving (phone with headset allowed). NO TXT, NO EMAIL. Noncomliance results in bigass fine. Accident caused by failure to obey this rule, results in impaired charge.

So, that what I see. Get the bad drivers off the road by any means. Period. Driving is a privaledge, take it away from those who cant handle it.

a show like Canada's Worst Driver should not exist!!!

[eastcoast_gsx]

Mandatory winter-specific testing.

Damn good point... I never understood how you can get a license in June and then be allowed to operate a vehicle in a January Blizzard... lol.

Plus everyone should be REQUIRED to pass their drivers test on a manual transmission car, to me, if you can't manage to learn how to drive a standard car, then you don't have what it takes to be on the road, its pretty damn simple.

[AdRath]

The only answers I see are to completely revamp the system.

- New, stringent, testing standards for all drivers, instructors and examiners
- Eliminating the 2 tier society effect of off-duty police, fire and ambulance staff being above traffic laws.
- 5 year re-tests for ALL drivers, not just people over 80
- Police who actually enforce ALL the laws, not just convenient ones
- Higher fines for "professional drivers" who break the law
(Truck drivers, bus drivers, taxi/limo drivers, driving instructors, POLICE when lights and siren are not on, etc. These people should be setting an example, not creating new lows as they are today)
- Updating the demerit point system to reflect what *actually* causes accidents, not just turning every offence known to man into "street-racing" a la Bill 203...

Just my 2 cents...

I agree with this plan of attack

[Rob MacLennan]

All well and good but, given the differences in difficulty of use, I would say that inexperienced drivers would be less of an issue on the highway. There's generally less going on for them to worry about; no oncoming traffic, no turning vehicles, no stop signs and lights....

The bureaucracy created by having retests every 5 years would be unfathomable. We have a heavy enough government as it is. We don't need to add to the public payroll. And before you say that it could be handled with existing staff, answer a question for me. Have you seen how long the lines are NOW? Simply enforcing the existing, non speed related moving violations would do what you want.

I don't like mandatory this-and-that. If you're going to make something mandatory, then what about enforcing a policy of insurance discounts for people who take AND PASS an accredited ADT/ART school? I'm not talking about Jim's Driving Academy and Grill. I mean programmes out of community colleges or ministry parking lots, run at set periods during the year and with expert instructors. These could be self-supporting.

I have no problem with banning the use of mobile devices, as such, except that their use can easily be folded into the existing "operation of a vehicle without due care and attention" statute. I abhor new law, when old or restructured law will suffice.

[AdRath]

If you're going to make something mandatory, then what about enforcing a policy of insurance discounts for people who take AND PASS an accredited ADT/ART school? I'm not talking about Jim's Driving Academy and Grill. I mean programmes out of community colleges or ministry parking lots, run at set periods during the year and with expert instructors. These could be self-supporting.
.

I agree with that also

[eastcoast_gsx]

Simply enforcing the existing, non speed related moving violations would do what you want.

I also don't understand this logic:

"We do not have the resources to enforce the rules we already have, so lets bring in more rules..."

weeeeee