car insurance question - TD MM not allowing car mods

[TomC]

My friend currently has a modded car insured with TD. TD MM offers the best rates as most people know....but they had explicitly stated on the phone that they will deny a claim if they find out the car has aftermarket performance mods on it.

He doesn't really care for the value of the car, if it gets totaled, it gets totaled...but what if he damages public property or a person, does TD have a right not to cover any of those 3rd party damages either? In short, can TD deny 3rd party coverage if they determine that you have misrepresented your vehicle?

[OpenGambit]

I suggest you get a copy of the agreement. nothing they say on the phone means anything.

[EngineerJoe]

This is a big issue in the Jeep community. A lot of people like to modify their vehicle to increase the capabilities off-road. Unfortunately insurance companies can't calculate the added risk associated with these mods*, so they tell you that coverage is void. The value of the vehicle aside, many Jeep owners with mods make sure the insurance is aware of the mods because of potential liability to 3rd parties.

*A friend that recently purchased a Jeep (which he plans on building for off-road and daily driver use) spoke with TD MM and asked what is classified as a mod. The list included a CAI, and stickers (no joke, she said "stickers")... Best to read your agreement with them.

Insurance companies are in the business to make as much money as they can. Many will look for any and every excuse they can use to weasel out of paying out on claims.

[VifferFun]

OP, I don't know the technicalities, but I suggest you send a PM to Platinum_Cycle and ask him to chime in on your thread. He's a Claims Adjuster and will know the actual answer. Anything else you hear will likely be hearsay.

[GYMPY]

Plantinum Cycle is a claim adjuster!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! No wonder he does not like me. I f you get into an accident, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER talk to an insurance claim adjuster. They are not there to help you in this matter. Their only concern is to save the insurance company as much money as they can and get your car fixed as cheaply as they can by using sub par used parts.. Never use an insurance prefered body shop. They are under contract to the insurance company and again to hold the business, they will fix it cheaply and use sub par used parts. Take the vehicle to someone you know will fix it right and use good parts. Always call upon a lawyer to talk to the claim adjuster. If you cannot get away from the claim adjuster until you call or get a lawyer, Say, No coment at this time. Anything else you say can be twisted and turned by the insurance company against you. They will say to you, If you have done nothing and have done nothing wrong, what fear do you have to talk to us??????????? Answer, NO COMMENT"

[TomC]

OP, I don't know the technicalities, but I suggest you send a PM to Platinum_Cycle and ask him to chime in on your thread. He's a Claims Adjuster and will know the actual answer. Anything else you hear will likely be hearsay.

Thanks, I've PM'ed him and have asked him to comment on this thread.

Plantinum Cycle is a claim adjuster!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! No wonder he does not like me. I f you get into an accident, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER talk to an insurance claim adjuster. They are not there to help you in this matter. Their only concern is to save the insurance company as much money as they can and get your car fixed as cheaply as they can by using sub par used parts.. Never use an insurance prefered body shop. They are under contract to the insurance company and again to hold the business, they will fix it cheaply and use sub par used parts. Take the vehicle to someone you know will fix it right and use good parts. Always call upon a lawyer to talk to the claim adjuster. If you cannot get away from the claim adjuster until you call or get a lawyer, Say, No coment at this time. Anything else you say can be twisted and turned by the insurance company against you. They will say to you, If you have done nothing and have done nothing wrong, what fear do you have to talk to us??????????? Answer, NO COMMENT"

No clue where all of this came from....all my friend (and I) want to know is if he will be paying for someone's "grief and suffering" for the rest of his life in the case of an accident.

[dr_sarcasm]

Plantinum Cycle is a claim adjuster!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! No wonder he does not like me. I f you get into an accident, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER talk to an insurance claim adjuster. They are not there to help you in this matter. Their only concern is to save the insurance company as much money as they can and get your car fixed as cheaply as they can by using sub par used parts.. Never use an insurance prefered body shop. They are under contract to the insurance company and again to hold the business, they will fix it cheaply and use sub par used parts. Take the vehicle to someone you know will fix it right and use good parts. Always call upon a lawyer to talk to the claim adjuster. If you cannot get away from the claim adjuster until you call or get a lawyer, Say, No coment at this time. Anything else you say can be twisted and turned by the insurance company against you. They will say to you, If you have done nothing and have done nothing wrong, what fear do you have to talk to us??????????? Answer, NO COMMENT"

Oh. My.

Someone forgot their decaf this morning...

Wow.

Lol.

[Corey McNeely]

It is possible for the insurance company to deny a claim based on the vehicle having modification that were not disclosed. I had a client who drove through a large puddle with a CAI and it hydrolock the engine of the car. He did not disclose the mod to us and had he left the OEM intake the loss would not have occurred. This claim was denied.

[VifferFun]

Plantinum Cycle is a claim adjuster!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, and a very knowledgeable one at that.

No wonder he does not like me.

I think there might be other reasons why he doesn't like you, but I won't speculate.

I f you get into an accident, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER talk to an insurance claim adjuster. They are not there to help you in this matter. Their only concern is to save the insurance company as much money as they can and get your car fixed as cheaply as they can by using sub par used parts.. Never use an insurance prefered body shop. They are under contract to the insurance company and again to hold the business, they will fix it cheaply and use sub par used parts. Take the vehicle to someone you know will fix it right and use good parts. Always call upon a lawyer to talk to the claim adjuster. If you cannot get away from the claim adjuster until you call or get a lawyer, Say, No coment at this time. Anything else you say can be twisted and turned by the insurance company against you. They will say to you, If you have done nothing and have done nothing wrong, what fear do you have to talk to us??????????? Answer, NO COMMENT"

The Claim Adjuster's job is to make sure you are satisfied within the terms of your policy. If insurance companies tried to scam people out of what they deserve, they would receive a bad reputation and lose lots of business. Insurance companies do a very good job at handling claims fairly. Ask people on GTAM who have made claims about their claims experience, and the vast majority (over 80%) will be positive, if not glowing.

Preferred body shops are not the cheapest, they are the ones that will o the job right. The insurance company guarantees the job and doesn't want you coming back with problems down the road. In fact, the preferred body shop in my hometown also happens to be the priciest and the one with the reputation for do the absolute best work in the region. If you want to take your vehicle to some sketch bondo-loving repair shop then go right ahead, but don't expect your insurer to guarantee the work.

"Lawyer'ing Up" is the very reason why insurance claims costs are so high in Ontario, and hence why premiums are so high.

[VifferFun]

It is possible for the insurance company to deny a claim based on the vehicle having modification that were not disclosed. I had a client who drove through a large puddle with a CAI and it hydrolock the engine of the car. He did not disclose the mod to us and had he left the OEM intake the loss would not have occurred. This claim was denied.

The loss you described was a direct result of the mod, but I'm not sure if the claim would be denied if the mod and claim were completely unrelated (such as an aftermarket exhaust). It would be interesting to see what Platinum_Cycle has to say.

[OpenGambit]

This is a big issue in the Jeep community. A lot of people like to modify their vehicle to increase the capabilities off-road. Unfortunately insurance companies can't calculate the added risk associated with these mods*, so they tell you that coverage is void. The value of the vehicle aside, many Jeep owners with mods make sure the insurance is aware of the mods because of potential liability to 3rd parties.

*A friend that recently purchased a Jeep (which he plans on building for off-road and daily driver use) spoke with TD MM and asked what is classified as a mod. The list included a CAI, and stickers (no joke, she said "stickers")... Best to read your agreement with them.

Insurance companies are in the business to make as much money as they can. Many will look for any and every excuse they can use to weasel out of paying out on claims.

I would love to see the "stickers" case. Too bad it would never get past the insurance company's internal legal department.

[Platinum Cycle]

Plantinum Cycle is a claim adjuster!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! No wonder he does not like me. "

Gympy,
We've never met, how could I possibly dislike you, and why would you immediately jump to such a conclusion?

[jeffjones]

Ask people on GTAM who have made claims about their claims experience, and the vast majority (over 80%) will be positive, if not glowing.
.

SF gets an A++ in my books, And they let me choose the best shop of all.....ME, they cut me a cheque for more then I was going to ask for.

Preferred body shops are not the cheapest, they are the ones that will o the job right. The insurance company guarantees the job and doesn't want you coming back with problems down the road. In fact, the preferred body shop in my hometown also happens to be the priciest and the one with the reputation for do the absolute best work in the region. If you want to take your vehicle to some sketch bondo-loving repair shop then go right ahead, but don't expect your insurer to guarantee the work.

"Lawyer'ing Up" is the very reason why insurance claims costs are so high in Ontario, and hence why premiums are so high.

Again +1,

The prefered shop near me is the actual dealership and the highest priced body shop.
They want you to go there as they know they are a shop that is purposely going to screw either party over.

And it would be stupid to "lawyer up" for maybe a couple hundred dollars as most good lawyers would take whatever extra (If not more) then you would receive.

[Platinum Cycle]

My friend currently has a modded car insured with TD. TD MM offers the best rates as most people know....but they had explicitly stated on the phone that they will deny a claim if they find out the car has aftermarket performance mods on it.

He doesn't really care for the value of the car, if it gets totaled, it gets totaled...but what if he damages public property or a person, does TD have a right not to cover any of those 3rd party damages either? In short, can TD deny 3rd party coverage if they determine that you have misrepresented your vehicle?

Hi Tom C.

Insurers generally don't want to insure vehicles which have been "modded or altered", in part because there is no way of knowing whether any of the modifications affect the safety of the vehicle. Insurers may have a rule that they will not insure a vehicle for improved speed or performance. In the case if a Jeep with a lift kit or something else extreme like that this can affect the centre of balance (easier to tip over etc). So you can see why insurers are reluctant to insure these vehicles.
We've also seen the kids driving modded Honda Civics - they may lower them by cutting the springs (although some are more professional), and to save weight (to make the car faster) some even remove the bumper re-bars etc, not to mention nitrous etc...
Point being insurers don't usually want these kind of vehicles.

On to your question.

Your friend has a modified vehicle and hits and kills a pedestrian, or some other similar tragedy. Your insurer will still be required to pay for the pedestrian, or bridge, or house or whatever else he ran into. There are provisions that could reduce his liability limits to $200 000 and make his liable for some portion of the claim the pedestrian or whoever may bring against him. It is also possible his insurer may seek reimbursement from your friend for what they have to pay the pedestrian (refer to Section 258 of the Insurance Act - but this would be very rare).
As for your friends car - that claim is much easier to deny in the case of a misrepresentation or material change in risk. He'll be left with a smashed up car and a denied claim.

So, if your friend has modified his vehicle he should tell his insurer. If they choose not to insure him any more hopefully the reasons above may explain why. If he doesn't tell his insurer and something happens, he may find himself in some trouble.

[Platinum Cycle]

Viffer,
Thanks for the compliment.

[TomC]

Hi Tom C.

Insurers generally don't want to insure vehicles which have been "modded or altered", in part because there is no way of knowing whether any of the modifications affect the safety of the vehicle. Insurers may have a rule that they will not insure a vehicle for improved speed or performance. In the case if a Jeep with a lift kit or something else extreme like that this can affect the centre of balance (easier to tip over etc). So you can see why insurers are reluctant to insure these vehicles.
We've also seen the kids driving modded Honda Civics - they may lower them by cutting the springs (although some are more professional), and to save weight (to make the car faster) some even remove the bumper re-bars etc, not to mention nitrous etc...
Point being insurers don't usually want these kind of vehicles.

On to your question.

Your friend has a modified vehicle and hits and kills a pedestrian, or some other similar tragedy. Your insurer will still be required to pay for the pedestrian, or bridge, or house or whatever else he ran into. There are provisions that could reduce his liability limits to $200 000 and make his liable for some portion of the claim the pedestrian or whoever may bring against him. It is also possible his insurer may seek reimbursement from your friend for what they have to pay the pedestrian (refer to Section 258 of the Insurance Act - but this would be very rare).
As for your friends car - that claim is much easier to deny in the case of a misrepresentation or material change in risk. He'll be left with a smashed up car and a denied claim.

So, if your friend has modified his vehicle he should tell his insurer. If they choose not to insure him any more hopefully the reasons above may explain why. If he doesn't tell his insurer and something happens, he may find himself in some trouble.

Exactly what we're looking for. Thanks.

[GYMPY]

Ok guys. It's time to let you know why I post some of those things like get a lawyer, do not talk to insurance claim adjusters and and do not take your cars to a prefered body which the insurance people like you to take it to. First of all, I used to OWN A BODY SHOP, My daughter is a PARALEGAL WHO FIGHTS insurance injustice all the time in courts. We had ins. adjusters come into my body shop and DICTATE to me what they were going to pay for a repair to car/truck, etc. What parts we were going to use. On some of the repairs, we would have been subsidizing the insurance company as we would have lost money on the repair. Another thing, getting paid by them was a nightmare. Some wanted up to 90 days before you got paid for repair. Do the insurance industry give you 90 days to pay your insurance???????????/ Let me know. After a couple of years of BS with the insurance industry, we refused to take on any insurance damage and refused to work on the customers car. We also had cars that came to us which had been repaired by Insurance prefered shops just a year or so after being repaired by those shop to have some of the work redone. Insurance only give one year warranty so they know they will be off the hook for bad work on those cars. A lot of work on those cars are only meant to last a little over a year and then you have to fix it. we had one that the front sub frame should have been replace but had been restrainghten probably by using a sledge hammer. Only a figure of speech. Bad job by the body shop. Guy could not keep front tires and front end alignement on car. We had to replace the front sub frame assembly on that car and owner had to pay for it. Hope he sued the crap out of that body shop and insurance company. I did give him a name of a good PIRRAHNA lawyer who fights insurance companies.

As for my daughter, she cannot discuss cases. Called lawyer client privilage. All she says is, WOW, what they try to get away with. If you want to find out, go to any court house and be a spectator and you will find out for yourself. Also go to the Court house office and you can look up case laws on car accidents, personel injury in car crashes etc. You can see what settlement were handed out, what the outcome of different cases were, the payouts, which are listed, if court case was appealed and the outcome of that apeal. This is all public information that anyone can have. Any type of law suits against anyone, anything can be looked up, copies made of any of those trials and if you get a ticket, you can go there and see who has won against the officer and how they did it. It has tons of info. This is not going to go good with a lot of people here. I like to show the other side of the coin. That is not well taken here on this board.

[EngineerJoe]

I would love to see the "stickers" case. Too bad it would never get past the insurance company's internal legal department.

This what I was told by a couple sources... But as you stated above "nothing they state on the phone means anything". I should probably add a disclaimer that it's best to verify with your written policy.

[nobbie48]

FWIW I've had no problems with adjusters on the rare occasions I've had to deal with them. Underwriters are a different story.

Some underwriters and their assistants (The ones that set your rates and write up your policy) are totally clueless. Some don't even drive. I'm sure some would think a supercharger was a fast charger for your cell phone.

When one looks at the sophistication of some mods it isn't hard to see how they would be unable to predict the effects of the changes. Setting rates is all about predicting.

The adjuster has to work within the scope of the policy. If the underwriter excluded something it's excluded. So as others have noted, put things in writing and understand what is written.

[Corey McNeely]

GYMPY, when did you own your shop?