Trucks turning into other lanes

[slowbird]

I'm going to explain an ongoing situation (in a specific intersection) that is bothering the hell out of me, and is not only causing traffic congestion, but will someday probably run over a rider or a small car.

Then I'd would like to here some ideas on how best to fix it: i.e. e-mail someone about posting signs etc

In Brampton, at the 410 Northbound Exit to Queen st there are 3 Lanes:
-Left most to turn left
-Middle to turn either left or right
-Right lane to turn Right.

Here is the intersection:


Conveniently enough there is a truck in the Right most lane, which is the heart of this problem.
The problem is the Trucks in the Right lane not only back up traffic as they cannot merge into traffic as quickly as most vehicles, but the biggest problem is when this light turns green the vehicles making a right from the middle lane are almost hit by the trucks in the right lane turning Extra wide! Also the Trucks block said vehs from making the right.
(see below)



As I have added to the picture of the intersection, the Blue, Green and yellow lines are the appropriate lines vehicles should be making when turning from this intersection (when the light is Green) But the trucks always take up the 2 lanes, and even sometimes poke into the left most lane!! (see red line)

They should be using the middle lane ONLY!!!

This morning was probably the 20th time I made a right turn from the middle lane (on the green light) and a truck coming up the right lane behind me, for some odd reason, doesn't expect me to stay in my lane and almost rams into my Quarter panel! If that happens to me on a bike I'm dead!

I understand they need to make wide turns when they have a trailer hooked but but they don't seem to make room for the vehicles turning in the middle lane. If they stick to the middle lane it would save everyone so much trouble, as well as any future possible accidents.

Now....what is the best way to deal with this problem?

[caboose483]

Makes sense. Whenever you see two left turn lanes the trucks are always in the RH left turn lane.

We don't often see multiple right turn lanes, perhaps they don't notice or don't know any better? Write a letter to request some signs giving instructions. Trucks in center lane only.

[slowbird]

Makes sense. Whenever you see two left turn lanes the trucks are always in the RH left turn lane.

We don't often see multiple right turn lanes, perhaps they don't notice or don't know any better?

Could very possibly be the reason.

Though there are atleast two sets of arrows on the lanes leading up to the intersection showing the middle lane turns both left and right. I can understand that they can miss it. We're only human.

Write a letter to request some signs giving instructions. Trucks in center lane only.

I was thinking I'd have to do that. Now, whom/where do I send the letter/e-mail?

[Cat13]

I would suggest to the city for a trucks in centre lane online sign. They cant make that tough of a turn. They require a 15m turning radius min. They know that.

[Rob MacLennan]

I have the same problem at literally all of the Brampton exits, from 410.

The lanes are signed to show that the centre lane can turn both ways, but too close to the intersection for trucks to take advantage of it. Then there are the trucks that legitimately need to make a right turn off Queen, either into the strip mall or to go down Tomken, that MUST take the right turn lane in order to do so. Some recently trained drivers just do what the GPS tells them.

You'll need to contact MTO, but don't hold your breath. As with all government departments, their mandate seems to be to say no.

[turbodish]

Makes sense. Whenever you see two left turn lanes the trucks are always in the RH left turn lane.

We don't often see multiple right turn lanes, perhaps they don't notice or don't know any better? Write a letter to request some signs giving instructions. Trucks in center lane only.

The signs are already on the back of transport trailers. Trucks make wide turns. The hope is that while they are making that wide turn, that some impatient driver or rider doesn't try to cut inside as the truck is making its turn because that space is needed by the trailers rear wheel sweep. This turn isn't really any different. By starting from the middle lane, the truck's trailer is still going to drag across the right lane as it follows the tractor can around, but the truck driver is no longer able to keep some control over that needed sweep space. I can see people's vehicles getting crushed by the trailer's wheels as the truck tries to make the turn.

By starting from the right lane, that possibility is minimized. The truck will still have to swing wide with the cab when making the turn, but the visibility for the truck driver is a lot better and the driver has more ability to control traffic to his left when doing so. The practice of swinging wide is also specifically permitted in the HTA.

[nobbie48]

I'm with turbodish. I'd rather be where I have the option of stopping or going wide myself instead of in a squeeze play on the right.

[caboose483]

The signs are already on the back of transport trailers. Trucks make wide turns. The hope is that while they are making that wide turn, that some impatient driver or rider doesn't try to cut inside as the truck is making its turn because that space is needed by the trailers rear wheel sweep. This turn isn't really any different. By starting from the middle lane, the truck's trailer is still going to drag across the right lane as it follows the tractor can around, but the truck driver is no longer able to keep some control over that needed sweep space. I can see people's vehicles getting crushed by the trailer's wheels as the truck tries to make the turn.

By starting from the right lane, that possibility is minimized. The truck will still have to swing wide with the cab when making the turn, but the visibility for the truck driver is a lot better and the driver has more ability to control traffic to his left when doing so. The practice of swinging wide is also specifically permitted in the HTA.

My interpretation is different from yours. The issue the OP raises is with the truck interfering with traffic that is in the LH left turn lane, not with traffic that is trying to cut inside the truck.

Why do trucks make left turns from the RH left turn lane? Pull straight forward, square the corner off as much as possible to keep the tandems from cutting into the LH left turn lane. Why not employ the same logic on right turns? That particular intersection has a very large radius curbing profile on the RH from the offramp onto Queens. Given that a tractor must use some of the 2nd lane on Queens to keep the tandems from clipping the curb, would it not make sense to use that generous amount of space to make a normal width RH right turn lane and a very generous LH right turn lane? Truck drivers can square off the corner and use as much of the 3rd EB lane as they like to turn into the 2nd EB lane.

Rob raises a good point.. if the truck driver needs to make a RH turn just down Queens then starting from the 2nd lane would make that difficult. Although that's the same issue that they face if they need to make a left turn shortly after turning the other way.

Is there anything that actually dictates what lane a truck should be turning from?

[Aslan]

I see the same situation at 400 north to highway 7 and 401 west to dixie, difference being there are 4 lanes, 2 per turn. I avoid being beside anything while turning with the expectation that most are going to mess it up.

Even when the ramps are paved with huge curves the trucks seem to take the lazy way, and trucks starting from the second right turn lane often end up in the third lane, even when they want to end up in the middle.

I bet some of these truckers are sticking to the middle of the lane instead of properly preparing for the turn because they know that if they are on the left line of such a wide lane some dingleberry is going to pretend there is another lane there and squeeze by them. Switching to no-right-on-red could help if that is the case.

Many people seem to be pretty horrible at planning ahead for what lane they want to be in for the next turn, in some american cities, you will find that the next interchange is signed one ramp in advance and they switch to solid lines between them, nice in theory but doesn't stop people from being in the wrong lane.

[dricked]

Just go wide into the wrong lane, it's alot better than getting into an argument with a transport, you won't win. I always watch what they do and drive around them wether their right or not doesnt matter, you can't argue if your dead.

Is this a busy intersection for trucks? Would there be enough room to have a heavy flow of trucks stay in one lane?

[Rob MacLennan]

Just go wide into the wrong lane, it's alot better than getting into an argument with a transport, you won't win. I always watch what they do and drive around them wether their right or not doesnt matter, you can't argue if your dead.

Is this a busy intersection for trucks? Would there be enough room to have a heavy flow of trucks stay in one lane?

At the stated intersection, and at the 410 & Steeles ramp, I frequently see transports making turns from the right curb lane to the extreme left lane, giving people turning from the centre lane nowhere to go. at Steeles this is because some truckers want to go north on Tomken, from Steeles, and choose the wrong lane on the ramp.

[slowbird]

Taking into account everyone's replies, I still think tricks are in the wrong turning from the right most lane.

If the use the middle lane the have a whole extra lane on the left to swing wide into, rather than cut off 2 lanes of traffic.

Also, another benefit of the trucks using the middle lane is a better flow of traffic turning right. The right lane can sometimes backup onto the regular lanes of the 410.

I hear what Turbodish is saying but I'm surprised at his stance on this. If I'm making a turn in my car from the middle lane and a truck goes wide into my lane and crushes my car, the trucker is at fault. So the trucker is in the wrong going wide into a live lane of traffic being used my other motorists.
If someone were to cut INSIDE the trucks turning radius, it's the other motorists fault hence the warnings on the back of the trailers.
A truck driver shouldn't just do as they please and endanger motorists to prevent something that "may" happen.

The point that was made that a truck might want to make the immediate right into the plaza is valid, and I can understand that reasoning. But they could always take Clark Blvd.

I can't speak for every time this has happend, but I can say the 2 trucks that did this this morning were with me all the way up to Queen/Bramalea rd.

[OpenGambit]

it can't hurt to ask =D

[slowbird]

At the stated intersection, and at the 410 & Steeles ramp, I frequently see transports making turns from the right curb lane to the extreme left lane, giving people turning from the centre lane nowhere to go. at Steeles this is because some truckers want to go north on Tomken, from Steeles, and choose the wrong lane on the ramp.

Yeah, Steeles is bad too.

....and good point. The trucks turning wide usually end up stopping the other right turning vehicles dead in their tracks.
Quite dangerous

[AF4iK]

Good suggestion about the sign. I agree whole heartedly. It would probably have to be one of those big arch signs that go over the road.

In the meantime, since you're aware of it, just avoid the middle lane when you see a truck to the right and inform other drivers of the potential hazard (like you're doing now).

[mat2312]

The signs are already on the back of transport trailers. Trucks make wide turns. The hope is that while they are making that wide turn, that some impatient driver or rider doesn't try to cut inside as the truck is making its turn because that space is needed by the trailers rear wheel sweep. This turn isn't really any different. By starting from the middle lane, the truck's trailer is still going to drag across the right lane as it follows the tractor can around, but the truck driver is no longer able to keep some control over that needed sweep space. I can see people's vehicles getting crushed by the trailer's wheels as the truck tries to make the turn.

By starting from the right lane, that possibility is minimized. The truck will still have to swing wide with the cab when making the turn, but the visibility for the truck driver is a lot better and the driver has more ability to control traffic to his left when doing so. The practice of swinging wide is also specifically permitted in the HTA.

+1, right lane is MUCH safer. Transports get in my way daily, but these guys are our lifeblood. They move our food, supplies and resources around our country. Without them, we all fail. Cut them some slack people, I have a hard enough time navigating my courier truck around senseless/oblivious/heartless people, I can only imagine what those guys have to deal with.

[EngineerJoe]

I see this too frequently myself (410 & Derry). Personally, I pick a lane with the least number of trucks and adjust my turn accordingly. Either I'm in the middle lane and I go wide on the outside, or I'm in the right lane and I stay to the far right when turning.

With the number of trucks in that area, holding them to the center lane only will seriously backup traffic. Enough trucks waiting to turn will block off the right turn lane, and will also limit left-turning motorists to the far left.

[slowbird]

Yes, yes. Lots of good suggestions on how to avoid the trucks.
Ive been living in this area of Brampton for almost 30yrs. I am quite proficient at avoiding the trucks and anticipating when they are going to turn extra wide into my lane.

But what about the people who aren't as proficient?
What about the drivers and riders who aren't expecting a huge truck to swing into their lane?

...and what about the possible situation that the truck doest see the vehicle in the middle lane (who has the right-of-way)? Or the driver is too fatigued?

Yes, these trucks are our lifeblood...why not put some preventive measures in effect?

[Rob MacLennan]

To be quite honest about it, I have more trouble with passenger vehicle drivers who can't seem to turn into the proper lane. I expect it of trucks, because they generally don't have a choice. Not so much a Toyota Yaris.

[slowbird]

With the number of trucks in that area, holding them to the center lane only will seriously backup traffic. Enough trucks waiting to turn will block off the right turn lane, and will also limit left-turning motorists to the far left.

The fact of the matter is the trucks block the right turn lane and prevent merging, and as such they are blocking traffic.
You can see the same at the Steeles/410 ramps.

Also when the light turns green and the trucks turns right from the right lane it blocks ALL right turning traffic.