Tire Warmers

[john bickle]

Cap-It warmers are Moto GP quality and a bit of overkill for a Cdn club racer like me. parillaguy

You know,,, I have to ask,, So what determines Moto GP Quality? Honestly this statement kind of confuses me [and that's not hard some days].
If a warmer was to sell for $600 or $900 what would it have to do to be Moto GP Quality? And yes I know the answer! Because I have had F1 warmers for a time.
But I'm curious as to what "you" guys would need that warmer to do to make that statement and to spend that money. Honest question from a guy trying to make a better product. And please bells and whistles are not in the equation,,, just honest tire/performance issues.

[caboose483]

You know,,, I have to ask,, So what determines Moto GP Quality? Honestly this statement kind of confuses me [and that's not hard some days].
If a warmer was to sell for $600 or $900 what would it have to do to be Moto GP Quality? And yes I know the answer! Because I have had F1 warmers for a time.
But I'm curious as to what "you" guys would need that warmer to do to make that statement and to spend that money. Honest question from a guy trying to make a better product. And please bells and whistles are not in the equation,,, just honest tire/performance issues.

Quesiton.

Are you familiar with the safety disconnect that Woodcraft uses? Would you ever consider using something like that or is there a reason why you don't?

[meme]

So what determines Moto GP Quality?

How about supplying umbrella guys?


hehe

[john bickle]

Yes I've seen it and done it,, I wouldn"t do it again because it adds over 4 more connections and you need to run regular wire over or around heating wire. So it is designed to fail.
Reistance wire does not like a lot of things and we have found less connections less failures.
The "safety disconnect" is an addition to prevent you from leaving the warmers on. When I was racing we never had that option and warmers were $750 for standard set of C-H's so you made sure you unplugged them first. So it's an option but really falls into "bells and whistles'. It has absolutley no function to make the tire perform better or worse. I'm looking for reasons why a warmer is better then others in relation to tire performance. A Moto GP team is not going to us WC warmers because of the safety disconnect.

[john bickle]

How about supplying umbrella guys?


hehe

Uhmm, got nothing again!

[Serialize]

that makes perfect sense and is in line with the logic in building code on homes (continuous wires from the breaker as much as possible).

[DaveP]

- Maybe zippers on both sides of the warmer, with an additional panel that can easily be zipped on/off if/when thermal insulation is needed to protect from the wind. Like the covers that are available now but built-in and fancy looking. (Plus it wouldn't cause tire to fender clearance issues)
- Add a sensor to detect when the warmers have been removed, after 15-30 seconds if still plugged in an audible alarm could sound as a warning.
- Add a timer to the warmers indicating how long they have been on.
- If you want to get real fancy, build in a tire pressure sensor that records a timestamp/surface temp/ambient temp/psi and allow this data to be accessible via usb. (Version 2.0 can be Bluetooth enabled LOL)
- Integrate a digital display with one of those wireless pressure sensing gauges, that way we don't have to even bother checking tire pressures. (Like in most modern cars)

Performance wise... I don't know my Bickle's are pretty sweet. Maybe the next version can make me a better rider LOL.
- Would having wires/an element directly on the rim help to get heat in a little quicker/better?

[eastcoast_gsx]

- Maybe zippers on both sides of the warmer, with an additional panel that can easily be zipped on/off if/when thermal insulation is needed to protect from the wind. Like the covers that are available now but built-in and fancy looking. (Plus it wouldn't cause tire to fender clearance issues)
- Add a sensor to detect when the warmers have been removed, after 15-30 seconds if still plugged in an audible alarm could sound as a warning.
- Add a timer to the warmers indicating how long they have been on.
- If you want to get real fancy, build in a tire pressure sensor that records a timestamp/surface temp/ambient temp/psi and allow this data to be accessible via usb. (Version 2.0 can be Bluetooth enabled LOL)
- Integrate a digital display with one of those wireless pressure sensing gauges, that way we don't have to even bother checking tire pressures. (Like in most modern cars)

Performance wise... I don't know my Bickle's are pretty sweet. Maybe the next version can make me a better rider LOL.
- Would having wires/an element directly on the rim help to get heat in a little quicker/better?

You mean like this?

http://www.bickleracing.com/index.ph...roducts_id=308

The rest is overkill and asking for trouble IMO

[DaveP]

LOL nice I see that was new for 2011. Clearly John is a brilliant mind... The simple timer is a good idea, even if it failed it shouldn't cause any issues. Overkill --> Hell YA!

You mean like this?

http://www.bickleracing.com/index.ph...roducts_id=308

The rest is overkill and asking for trouble IMO

[john bickle]

Here's what we found,,, if you extend the side the calipers today can casue you issues especially on the front. We had serious problems with several CSBK teams when we did that.It makes removing calipers on pit lane hard as well.
Fact is,if it is that windy you need a complete side cover on the windward side. If it is that cold you need insulation.
If you put the best furnace in your house and leave the doors and windows open do you curse the furnace for not heating the house?
ALL warmers I have tested lose almost double the heat we loose thru the top of the warmer.I have tested F1,C-H,WC,T-Sox,Sumomoto,and KLS as well.
So when it's under 15 C how well does your warmer work? Your race is coming up and you have 50 C in your tire and it's been on for 2 hours. You're at Cayuga and you will not build heat. So by the 10th lap or sooner, of the race you have less heat then you have now. FACT. So is starting the race with 80 C important to you?
Is setting your hot tire pressure important to you? Is the 78 C-85 C starting point important to you. Or if the warmer only heats to 65 is that okay? Is ease of getting a warmer off important? Is getting the warmer repaired important?
I can add "bling" in a heart beat. In fact most of the stuff you have mentioned so far we have done and stopped.

So my question was what makes a Moto GP warmer? You do not see bling warmers in a Moto GP paddock unless they get paid to do it. Becasue as "east coast gsx" says you are asking for trouble. That is fact. KISS works very well in the real world here. "Bling" works really well at Tim Horton's!
Not to say there isn"t a place for "Bling" or there is anything wrong with "Bling"

[john bickle]

LOL nice I see that was new for 2011. Clearly John is a brilliant mind... The simple timer is a good idea, even if it failed it shouldn't cause any issues. Overkill --> Hell YA!

Yes,, but you could probably buy one at Candian Tire for $20 and add it to the plug. Thus reducing at least two more connections and where do you add it? One to each warmer? Or would it be easier and cheaper to buy one and add it before the power bar.?
Some of you have not seen the bad track karma yet,,, but regardless of bells and whistles,,when the track gods want to wreck your stuff ,,,THEY WILL! All the crap in the world will not help you.

[Serialize]

Some of you have not seen the bad track karma yet,,, but regardless of bells and whistles,,when the track gods want to wreck your stuff ,,,THEY WILL! All the crap in the world will not help you.

I can relate to this! Well put!

[brettmvh]

- Add a timer to the warmers indicating how long they have been on.

Put some velcro with a sticky back on your bike, stand, genny etc. Do the same with a simple timer from Crap Tire and when you put the warmers on, hit start. Completely seperate yet gives you the timer you need. Or use a phone. Most cell's have a timer on them. KISS makes life very easy. Especially when your timer breaks, it isn't an integral part of your warmer and you can always go back to taking a look at a watch and remembering when you put them on.

[john bickle]

Okay, here is what I look for in a warmer.
even heating as possible,ensuring the stated temperature is as close to that statement as possible,heat soaked in 40 minutes and reducing that heat soak time by reduceing heat lost out the top of the warmer[not by increasing the heat],,repairability,power draw,when started in gear the rear warmer does not become a weapon,,real world function and not theory, using the heating wire like the manufacture states to use it, increasing longevity. Thsoe are just a few things,

Congrates to Jason Disalvo and Team Latus as well as Kyle Wymann XR 1200 with Harv"s Harley Davidson both podiumed at Daytona using our stuff.
At least we are AMA quality now ,,,,,,,now to work on Moto GP

[Stealth1]

I think most on GTAM would run Bickle warmers if they could, I know I would. But for me it came down to initial investment, which I know is short sighted. But I hope I won't have any issues with my Woodcraft warmers, I believe they offer a good product and have great support. The only thing I can say I dislike about my WC warmers is the length of the power cords...I find them to be a bit short. As has been mentioned on here, handling your warmers properly greatly increases the life of them.

Just curious:
-Is there any need for zoned heating in warmers...ie. temp sensors on the middle and edge of the warmers to ensure even temps across the tire?
-I like the integrated Tire pressure idea posted above, I think that would be useful as long as the sensors are accurate. Any thoughts on that?

[caboose483]

I like the integrated Tire pressure idea posted above, I think that would be useful as long as the sensors are accurate. Any thoughts on that?

I don't. It intruduces another failure mode.

Use one good air pressure gage and only one. Get it calibrated against your tire guy's REALLY good air pressure gauge and use that one only. I know that my gage reads 1/2psi higher than Sandy's so I use it all the time. Using 3 different tire gages is not a good idea.

[smergy]

funny, mine does the same, along with a buddies, both are 1/2 a lb higher

[john bickle]

I think most on GTAM would run Bickle warmers if they could, I know I would. But for me it came down to initial investment, which I know is short sighted. But I hope I won't have any issues with my Woodcraft warmers, I believe they offer a good product and have great support. The only thing I can say I dislike about my WC warmers is the length of the power cords...I find them to be a bit short. As has been mentioned on here, handling your warmers properly greatly increases the life of them.

Just curious:
-Is there any need for zoned heating in warmers...ie. temp sensors on the middle and edge of the warmers to ensure even temps across the tire?
-I like the integrated Tire pressure idea posted above, I think that would be useful as long as the sensors are accurate. Any thoughts on that?

Woodcraft $379 CDN and Bickle $425 difference of $46 for a two year mfg warranty. Jim Proulx at RACE has a set of ours over 10 years old still working.Just repaired a set of second year Diablo CSBK warmers for a guy that are on at least the 5th owner. FYI a CSBK warmer 1 year of CSBK use is equal to 4 years of trackdays.

But I'll answer the question casue Woodcraft is not here to do it.
The F1 warmers we produced/replicated for the Benaton cars RACE Inc has. Here's the deal,,, four zones,, break the tire down into [as you stand looking at the front tire.] top front, top rear,bottom front, bottom rear. Each tire has four controllers ,one for each zone. The top of a tire is about 10 C warmer then the bottom. So you set the bottom 10 C higher then the front,, or as the 14 engineer's request you to do.
Motorcycle tires are a little easier. Top teams want no bling ,no whistles. Some use the control box and some are fine with out it. They rotate the tire every 5 to 10 minutes. They wreck more stuff then any track day guy could imagine.
Team Latus with Jason Disalvo uses our Standard warmers. We customized a few things for the pit lane,,procedure,, but that is it. Harv's Harley with the Wyman brothers,, the tuner came from Indy Car so they use the programmable.
F1 complicates the heck out of stuff and most guys would not be able to have space for the 2 foot by three foot control box that controls the warmers. And your numbers have to be bang on or the infra red pick up will tell the tech guy it isn"t. So you want F1 warmers and area heating we can do it but get your wallet out.
As for side to middle heating,,,waste of time,,, the heat from the side will radiate to the middle and vice versa,,,,it's all about heat soak. And that is where we kick @$$ when you have your 15C day or under. Bazinga!
Intagrated tire pressure idea,?????,,,,,I'll go back to the $46 bucks. Wouldn"t even entertain it as I don"t like building in failure points.

[john bickle]

Okay missed the diff between the WC digital and Bickle,, so WC is $499 and Bickle is $625.
WC use to use the same control box we did. I can tell you why they changed. Because the box we use is the best you can get for this type of design,,so it's not cheap. So the $126 difference is very explainable. But I won"t do that here unless someone asks. The bottom line is if you CAN'T afford a good programmable save your money and buy regulars. Cheap standard/regular warmers are by far a better, safer bet then cheap programmables and less risk!

[kneedragger88]

Woodcraft $379 CDN and Bickle $425 difference of $46 for a two year mfg warranty. Jim Proulx at RACE has a set of ours over 10 years old still working.Just repaired a set of second year Diablo CSBK warmers for a guy that are on at least the 5th owner. FYI a CSBK warmer 1 year of CSBK use is equal to 4 years of trackdays.

My set has to be that old always worked fine. Only failure was when I ripped out a cord. Burnt a hole in one the first weekend because I didnt hang them just threw in a ball. Both times my fault. Bic fixed the cord, hole still there. Great product, great service, great price, why are we still talking about this?