Speeding Ticket, First time going into the court room myself, would like help?

[Questionz]

Hey guys,

I got a speeding ticket last month for 30 km over. I know this is going to be a hard case to beat, because it is a speeding ticket after all. I typically do not speed, and seldomly drive 30 over.

The reason I went 30 over in this case was because I was trying to let the car pass me from behind. Where I got caught was a two lane street, there was a slow car on the right lane, and another car trying to cut me off by driving close to the slow car, and swerve into my lane and speed past. So I accelerated and once I passed the slow car, immediately switched to the right lane, allowing the car behind me to pass. Unfortunately, as soon as I made my lane change, I got caught in the speed trap, and the officer pulled both of us over. Can anyone give me perspective on how I should approach this, or am I absolutely screwed? I haven't gotten many tickets, so I am absolutely terrified (deer caught in the headlights), and just don't know what to say in front of the cop. Therefore, I basically didn't ask for the calibration report from the officer.

I just came across the post explaining how to fight these tickets, but am not sure what kind of a chance I have. I am hoping that you guys who have fought in court and won this kind of speeding ticket would be able to help me out.

I am planning on obtaining a disclosure document, and see what the officer wrote. IF the officer did not write anything in the document, would I be able to have this dismissed? Would the officer have calibration reports in the disclosure? IF I go to court and speak to the officer, what are my chances that he may drop the charge? Would officers almost always show up for speeding ticket court dates?

Please don't think I am one of those who constantly speeds and just want to fight it so I can keep speeding. I am also willing to print out my Driver's Abstract to show the court that I have not had a speeding ticket for two years, showing that I am a diligent driver, not a daredevil.

Thanks.

[umesh840]

If they dont give you a disclosure before your court date, you can ask for the case to be dismissed and if not dissmissed adjourned to a later date becuase of their mistake ( you gotta make sure that you point out your asking for a later date because of their mistake), where you file for 11b because you have "the right to a speedy trial".

The prosecutor will ask you if your ready to for court and if you want to plead guilty or not, just say your not ready if you dont have the diclosure before the trial date, The prosecutor will try to trick you and say that she/he can get the copy of the the officers notes for you that second, but you also have the right to read over the disclosure and be given a reasonable amount of time to think how you want to proceed with the case, so if that happens just say you need more time for you to read over the disclosure and decide how you want to proceed.

Your drivers abstract will help, if you get it printed out, and bring it to court

[Questionz]

I'm wondering, when you say "mistake", you mean them not issuing me the disclosure within the amount of time right?

Also, since I'm planning on going to the courthouse and requesting a disclosure, should I try to talk to the prosecutor as well, or it's just a waste of my time?

[FiReSTaRT]

I recommend faxing in your disclosure request and make sure you don't give them your phone number. That way you save yourself 2 trips to the courtroom and from the Crown giving the JP the standard b.s. excuse "we called him to let him know that his disclosure package was ready but he never picked up." Another issue is that the disclosure requests that they force you to use down there leave what you need for your defense at THEIR discretion. Make sure you save your transmission receipt, noting the date, the time and the number you faxed your request to. Here's the page with the download link for a very good sample disclosure request form and contact info for Toronto courts http://ticketcombat.com/step4/disclosurehow.php You may wanna read through the site first as I've found it to be very useful. Things to remember:

1) Don't go to the court office.. Fax in your requests.

2) Don't talk to the prosecutor. Nothing good will ever come out of it

3) Save your transmission receipt

[Questionz]

I recommend faxing in your disclosure request and make sure you don't give them your phone number. That way you save yourself 2 trips to the courtroom and from the Crown giving the JP the standard b.s. excuse "we called him to let him know that his disclosure package was ready but he never picked up." Another issue is that the disclosure requests that they force you to use down there leave what you need for your defense at THEIR discretion. Make sure you save your transmission receipt, noting the date, the time and the number you faxed your request to. Here's the page with the download link for a very good sample disclosure request form and contact info for Toronto courts http://ticketcombat.com/step4/disclosurehow.php You may wanna read through the site first as I've found it to be very useful. Things to remember:

1) Don't go to the court office.. Fax in your requests.

2) Don't talk to the prosecutor. Nothing good will ever come out of it

3) Save your transmission receipt

Thanks! I'm sorry if I have to ask you to clarify some of the things you wrote, I'm just a little confused. If i don't give my phone number, how would I be able to pick up the package? Do I just call them after a week to see if it's ready for pickup?

The disclosure form that you included, you mentioned it's for Toronto courts. The document doesn't say anything about Toronto, so I believe that I can also use this for Brampton (I got my ticket in Brampton)?

Now, when you say that they leave the disclosure at THEIR discretion, I don't think I follow. Are they going to manipulate the disclosure so that it makes it seem like they are in the right? Or your just mentioning that IF I don't know what to request for, they won't provide it, therefore the disclosure request link that you provided basically request everything that could be provided by the officer?

===

Ok, I will fax in my request tomorrow, should I give them a week, and call back? My court date is in June/July, and I am hoping somehow that the officer will be on vacation (but highly unlikely, shucks).

[FiReSTaRT]

1) If you don't give them your phone number, they have to mail it to you. Don't call them. You do not wanna talk to them on the phone. All communication by mail.

2) Double-check the court on the back of the ticket, but I googled this.. If the court addresses match, this page has a fax number that's supposed to go to the right place http://www.roadwarriors.ca/provincia...court_brampton

3) By "their discretion" I mean that they just send you what they think you need, which is typically just a photocopy of both sides of the ticket. You also wanna request stuff like the constable's notes (TYPED and with all shorthand writing translated into PLAIN ENGLISH), photocopies of the pages relevant to the speed measuring device's calibration and maintenance and you want copies of the calibration and maintenance logs, for example. You have to be specific with your request.

4) Don't call them. Don't talk to them over the phone. If the disclosure request doesn't arrive by the end of February, send another. Check the ticketcombat site, but I think it's about 6 weeks before the trial date that you have to file your 4F (do it over fax as well as per the ticketcombat site instructions) due to lack of disclosure and possibly unreasonable delay if there's more than 10 months between your offence date and your trial date. Typically they won't throw it out for unreasonable delay for anything under a year (closer to 15 month mark), but it's worth a shot to try for anything over 10 month as there have been a FEW cases where people lucked out.

[OpenGambit]

I fail to see the merit of the no phone contact advice.

[FiReSTaRT]

I fail to see the merit of the no phone contact advice.

There are 2 GOOD reasons..

1) They can't force the OP to come to the courthouse, wasting time, wasting gas, paying for parking and all that jazz. Instead, they put a stamp on it and put it in the outbox

2) If they don't deliver the disclosure package until the trial date, they won't be able to claim "it was ready months ago, we phoned him, but he never came to pick it up" (which is a "liberty with the truth" that they use fairly often)

[OpenGambit]

There are 2 GOOD reasons..

1) They can't force the OP to come to the courthouse, wasting time, wasting gas, paying for parking and all that jazz. Instead, they put a stamp on it and put it in the outbox

2) If they don't deliver the disclosure package until the trial date, they won't be able to claim "it was ready months ago, we phoned him, but he never came to pick it up" (which is a "liberty with the truth" that they use fairly often)

The first one is convenience, and thats understandable, but its hardly enough to make some kind of rule about it.

As far as the 2nd one goes, what you are talking about is just lying... I have never experienced any Crown attorney lying for any reason. ( And I was a Crown at one point )

I think having some kind of rule against meeting the prosecutor is a mistake. I have actually never made it to court in Ontario because it has been dropped multiple times after a brief meeting with the prosecutor.

[FiReSTaRT]

The prosecutor may not lie, but the admin staff might lie to the prosecutor. Even if it's not a lie, they could call and make it ring once or twice and hang up. The bottom line is that there's absolutely no benefit to the OP in actually giving the prosecutor his phone number. Also, it's not just "convenience".. It's a significant expenditure of time and money, with very little potential benefit. That's best-case scenario. I have heard a cop tell outright lies (impossible to disprove) in court and I have heard a cop making 2 contradictory statements, which were taken at face by the JP when they were convenient to the prosecution, so I don't have much faith in the integrity of the system.

You also claim that as an ex prosecutor, you've had your charges dropped at every meeting. Well, duh.. That's professional courtesy at work or at best them recognizing a dismal prospect for conviction. The OP is obviously inexperienced and is more likely to make mistakes when interacting with the prosecutor. A typical speeding case is pretty straight-forward and the Crown can easily make a prima facie case, so the OP's best bet is to exploit a procedural error that results in a Charter rights violation.

[OpenGambit]

I can't comment or give specific advice. I deal only in generalities and hypotheticals on this board for obvious professional reasons.
There is nothing wrong with mail service, but suggesting that the admin staff lie or the prosecutor might lie is just ridiculous. they could just as well lie that it was mailed if that was the case.
Whether a cop lies or not on the stand is completely irrevelent to the issue at hand.

As for me, no I don't walk into the prosecutors office and start waving my law society ID around.

[FiReSTaRT]

You may not wave your ID, but I'm sure you speak enough legalese to get your point across - the point being that you know a thing or two about the law and that they should either extend professional courtesy or be DAMN sure that they have a good case. Most of their other victims show up in court wearing jeans and sweaters or even hi-vis vests. I had my charges dropped before I was even asked about my plea simply because I wore a monkey-suit as opposed to casual wear. One prosecutor even kept referring to "my client" lol

[OpenGambit]

I actually went to court in rollerblades before... I ended up walking onto the stand in my socks. I won tho lol.

but I won't disagree that you should show up looking like a respectful human being. I would recommend that to everyone. put on a damn tie, or at least a sport jacket if you are going to show up.

[Rob MacLennan]

I can't comment or give specific advice. I deal only in generalities and hypotheticals on this board for obvious professional reasons.
There is nothing wrong with mail service, but suggesting that the admin staff lie or the prosecutor might lie is just ridiculous. they could just as well lie that it was mailed if that was the case.
Whether a cop lies or not on the stand is completely irrevelent to the issue at hand.

As for me, no I don't walk into the prosecutors office and start waving my law society ID around.

I agree that it's very unlikely for The Crown, or the office staff, to lie about disclosure being ready or delivered. It's a reasonable practice, though, to place the onus on The Crown for proof of delivery as it serves the accused. The accused cannot reasonably be asked to prove a negative, but The Crown can be asked to show proof of delivery. All that would take is a registered letter receipt.

[turbodish]

I agree that it's very unlikely for The Crown, or the office staff, to lie about disclosure being ready or delivered. It's a reasonable practice, though, to place the onus on The Crown for proof of delivery as it serves the accused. The accused cannot reasonably be asked to prove a negative, but The Crown can be asked to show proof of delivery. All that would take is a registered letter receipt.

The Crown also has no need to present "proof" of delivery because they are not the one on trial. They can simply send it out by regular mail.

[Rob MacLennan]

The Crown also has no need to present "proof" of delivery because they are not the one on trial. They can simply send it out by regular mail.

And the accused has no need to show "proof" of innocence, but merely reasonable doubt.

[FiReSTaRT]

They are not gonna send it by registered mail as it costs too much. A stamp will have it delivered within a reasonable amount of time. However, making the accused take time off work in order to go to court, whether it's one extra time (just to pick it up) or twice (if they're so uninformed that they will deliver their request in person) is quite a bit of punishment for someone whose guilt hasn't been proven in a very minor matter. Typical costs:

-$100-200 or so in lost pay for a missed half-day or two
-$2-10 in fuel
-$5-10 in parking
-The effects on the accused's perceived job performance that can't be quantitatively measured, but they already have to make 2 court appearances AT LEAST. Why add another one or two and that's assuming that the JP doesn't just adjourn the case if the Crown fails to give the accused complete and timely disclosure?

[the_mueg]

Hey guys,

I got a speeding ticket last month for 30 km over. I know this is going to be a hard case to beat, because it is a speeding ticket after all. I typically do not speed, and seldomly drive 30 over.

The reason I went 30 over in this case was because I was trying to let the car pass me from behind. Where I got caught was a two lane street, there was a slow car on the right lane, and another car trying to cut me off by driving close to the slow car, and swerve into my lane and speed past. So I accelerated and once I passed the slow car, immediately switched to the right lane, allowing the car behind me to pass. Unfortunately, as soon as I made my lane change, I got caught in the speed trap, and the officer pulled both of us over. Can anyone give me perspective on how I should approach this, or am I absolutely screwed? I haven't gotten many tickets, so I am absolutely terrified (deer caught in the headlights), and just don't know what to say in front of the cop. Therefore, I basically didn't ask for the calibration report from the officer.

I just came across the post explaining how to fight these tickets, but am not sure what kind of a chance I have. I am hoping that you guys who have fought in court and won this kind of speeding ticket would be able to help me out.

I am planning on obtaining a disclosure document, and see what the officer wrote. IF the officer did not write anything in the document, would I be able to have this dismissed? Would the officer have calibration reports in the disclosure? IF I go to court and speak to the officer, what are my chances that he may drop the charge? Would officers almost always show up for speeding ticket court dates?

Please don't think I am one of those who constantly speeds and just want to fight it so I can keep speeding. I am also willing to print out my Driver's Abstract to show the court that I have not had a speeding ticket for two years, showing that I am a diligent driver, not a daredevil.

Thanks.

IF the officer did not write anything in the document, would I be able to have this dismissed? NO

Would the officer have calibration reports in the disclosure?NO, I don't suggest you take that avenue.

IF I go to court and speak to the officer, what are my chances that he may drop the charge?why would he? Convincing the prosecutor should be easier.

Would officers almost always show up for speeding ticket court dates?
Most of the time.

Note: a judge won't care about circumstances unless they are extreme. If you did it then you did it. If you don't fight you can get reduction on the fine by setting a deal with prosecutor. This means that your insurance still goes up by same amount but you don't pay as much upfront. If you fight then build a case and use witnesses. A judge won't throw out a ticket if you start playing it took too much time.

[OpenGambit]

you realize that disclosure is essentially a summary of the case against you. if there is nothing in it, then there is nothing for them to charge you with....

[the_mueg]

you realize that disclosure is essentially a summary of the case against you. if there is nothing in it, then there is nothing for them to charge you with....

I was writing under the assumption that nothing = nothing more than the ticket info. The disclosure is often a form where the information is same as ticket plus sometimes there are officer notes on it. The officer is the witness and that is usually enough.