where to buy engine ice

[caboose483]

Unless you can show that any one of those racing org is a race track, then no, you haven't.

I don't know why I bother some times.

Org's versus the actual race track itself? Splitting hairs.

A fat load of good it'll do someone if they trailer all their crap down to Grattan or Mid-Ohio with Engine Ice in their bike because the track allows it only to have Tech Inspection tell them to fix it or park it.

[fastar1]

Org's versus the actual race track itself? Splitting hairs.

A fat load of good it'll do someone if they trailer all their crap down to Grattan or Mid-Ohio with Engine Ice in their bike because the track allows it only to have Tech Inspection tell them to fix it or park it.

Metastable has said that someone could trailer all their crap down to Grattan or Mid-Ohio with Engine Ice in their bike because the track allows it and Tech Inspection won't tell them to fix it or park it. Of course that may not apply with some organisers but the statement is still accurate. Yet you have called his statement inaccurate and have yet to show why.

[caboose483]

Metastable has said that someone could trailer all their crap down to Grattan or Mid-Ohio with Engine Ice in their bike because the track allows it and Tech Inspection won't tell them to fix it or park it. Of course that may not apply with some organisers but the statement is still accurate. Yet you have called his statement inaccurate and have yet to show why.

May not apply? It does not apply with the org's I mentioned. I don't see where the disconnect is here, honestly. If you go down to a STT trackday or a WERA race weekend at Grattan, neither will let you run Engine Ice. Meta says you can use it at US tracks (blanket statement: any track and any org = Engine Ice OK!) but you can't.

[fastar1]

Meta says you can use it at US tracks (blanket statement: any track and any org = Engine Ice OK!) but you can't.

I see the disconnect. Saying it can be used at any US track is true, as long as there is at least one instance where it can be used at each US track. It doesn't have to be every instance. The anser is also more applicable to the OP's situation if one assumes that he is not associated with any race org.

It's like saying a discount coupon can be used at any retailer is still true even if a given retailer doesn' accept the coupon for a period, say during a weekend sales blowout. Or if they don't allow employees to benefit from it.

[Rob MacLennan]

It doesn't have to be every instance. The anser is also more applicable to the OP's situation if one assumes that he is not associated with any race org.

And yet it's an immaterial hair-split, if the hosting organization will not permit its use.

[caboose483]

I see the disconnect. Saying it can be used at any US track is true, as long as there is at least one instance where it can be used at each US track. It doesn't have to be every instance. The anser is also more applicable to the OP's situation if one assumes that he is not associated with any race org.

It's like saying a discount coupon can be used at any retailer is still true even if a given retailer doesn' accept the coupon for a period, say during a weekend sales blowout. Or if they don't allow employees to benefit from it.

And this is what I'd consider a dangerous blanket statement because it is vague. When i read a statement like that i take it to mean that you can use it at any track, anytime.

My inference of what he wrote is apparently different than yours. Your counter argument predicates that Meta's post was not a blanket statement at all, in which case everything i wrote is moot and all your counter points are irrelavent.

Regardless, it's best to be aware that not all org's allow it. Jennings does at their own track run trackdays. Many other orgs (both trackday and race) do not. So be mindful of what's in your bike when you go to the track.. any track.. with any organizer.

[Brian P]

Did not realize I was opening such a can of worms.

I called it in post #2

Bottom line:

Water + WaterWetter (or equivalent anticorrosion and water pump lubricant additives that do not consist of antifreeze glycols) is accepted everywhere.

Propylene glycol is just as slippery as ethylene glycol if it gets out on the pavement, so even though certain organizations in certain locations may accept its use (or not check whether it's being used) it's not a good idea.

[Rob MacLennan]

It is, on the other hand, a good choice for the street. It has the same characteristics as ethylene glycol based coolant but is non toxic, and cleans up much more easily when spilled. It's just that, on the track, there's no opportunity to clean up before the next dozen bikes come through.

[Metastable]

Again I wasn't talking about RACING I was talking about trackdays.


But just to prove a point:

STT (track day organizer) on their website:
Advanced and Intermediate group riders must use water, water wetter or a non-ethyl glycol based anti-freeze/coolant. Approved Poly Glycol brands are: Evans, 7th Gear, Liquid Performance, and Engine Ice. Automotive ethyl glycol based coolants are not allowed.
http://www.sportbiketracktime.com/tr...gulations.html

And STT runs at:
Roebling
Carolian Motorsports Park
Barber
Nashville
Grattan
Autobahn
Atlanta Motorsports
Road America
Gingerman
Putnam Park
Blackhawk Farms

They use to run at Mid-O and stopped and I will let you know that when I was there last year, after STT was no longer involved with Mid-O, I was talking to one of Mid-Os lead instructors and HE ran Engine Ice.

Furthermore - of that list above, MOST of those tracks allow coolant... actually STT allows coolant in the Novice group..... not that it makes much sense to me.... but that is the way it is.

Anyhoo - just for giggles, these are tracks/organizations that allow regular Ethylene based coolants:

New Jersey - Absolute Cycle Experience
Arroyo Seco - ASMA
Loudon - Boston Moto Trackdays
VIR - California Superbike School (CSB)
Las Vegas - CSB
Streets of Willow - CSB
Barber - CSB
Miller - CSB
Infineon - CSB
Beavrun - Class Motorcycle School (plus they do Infineo, Streets of WillowVIR)
Oregon raceway park - Class
Summit Point - Cornerspeed
JenningsGP (except for Ed Bargy School, but they run on the same day as trackday folks - so pointless)
AutoClub Speedway - Fastrack
Homestead - Florida Trackdays
Jupiter - Florida Trackdays
Heartland Park - Heartland Park Trackdays
Spokane - Inland Speed
Thunderhill - Keigwins
Infineon - Keigwins
Miller - Keigwins
Buttonwillow - Let's Ride
Motorsport Ranch - Lone Star Track Days
Texas world speedway - Lone Star Track Days
Eagles Canyon - Lone Star Track Days
Portland - Motocorsa Track Days
Nelson Ledges - Moto Series
Willow Springs - Motoyard
Inde Motorsports - Peris Riding (ring a bell)
Reno - Precision Trackdays
Cuckwalla Valley - SoCal Track Days
Mid America Motorplex - TrackAddix
Brainerd - Zalusky Advanced....

NESBA - only advanced group does not allow Antifreeze, Water wetter only.

So Caboose - that LIST is places that allow ETHYLENE Glycol.... so if Corbo wants to do a trackday in the US he is good to go with Engine Ice.... with the exception of very few organizations... there are a few, but not many.... and I was never talking about racing.... because with racing, I figure you'd have to read the rule book anyway.

So my point stands, unless you are splitting hairs.... to find someone that doesn't allow Engine Ice at a US trackday is ALMOST impossible.

Oh BTW - info from Roadracing World.

[caboose483]

You can use it at US tracks.

How silly of me. It clearly states right here that you were talking about trackdays and not racing. My apologies.

[fastar1]

How silly of me. It clearly states right here that you were talking about trackdays and not racing. My apologies.

He doesn't have to state anything to please your restricted interpretation of what he meant. "US tracks" includes all activites at the track, racing or not. If YOU'RE the one who decides to limit the interpretation of his words then you shouldn't go and blame HIM for being inaccurate.

And if lack of clarity is the problem, how exactly do you think this helps resolve that problem?

I genuinely despise inaccurate blanket statements.

[caboose483]

He doesn't have to state anything to please your restricted interpretation of what he meant. "US tracks" includes all activites at the track, racing or not. If YOU'RE the one who decides to limit the interpretation of his words then you shouldn't go and blame HIM for being inaccurate.

And if lack of clarity is the problem, how exactly do you think this helps resolve that problem?

I already "resolved that problem" in subsequent posts.

I'm not sure if you don't know what a blanket statement is or if you're just being obtuse... but when you write US tracks includes all activites at the track you're basically falling into the same trap Meta did. If you're including ALL activites at the track then the claim is that: Engine Ice is legal for all activies at US tracks. A false statement. I am not limiting my interpretation of his words, if anything my interpretation is quite literal.

You can use it at US tracks? Not always. That's why it is inaccurate. They only valid rebuttal you can provide is that it wasn't a blanket statement to begin with. Either way, this is stupid and I'm repeating myself so I'm all done here.

[fastar1]

I already "resolved that problem" in subsequent posts.

Actually, metastable did. Show me where you added clarity to the thread.

I'm not sure if you don't know what a blanket statement is or if you're just being obtuse... but when you write US tracks includes all activites at the track you're basically falling into the same trap Meta did. If you're including ALL activites at the track then the claim is that: Engine Ice is legal for all activies at US tracks. A false statement. I am not limiting my interpretation of his words, if anything my interpretation is quite literal.

No, it doesn't change the meaning of the claim. As I said before;

Saying "it can be used at any US track" is true, as long as there is at least one instance where it can be used at each US track. It doesn't have to be every instance.

That you limited your reading of the statement to apply to racing organisations alone, is not the fault of the person who stated it. Though it may no be as clear as you would like, it is certainly not inaccurate to anyone who accepts the statement at face value, without limitations.

You can use it at US tracks? Not always. That's why it is inaccurate. They only valid rebuttal you can provide is that it wasn't a blanket
statement to begin with. Either way, this is stupid and I'm repeating myself so I'm all done here.

It's only a blanket statement because he didn't check with all the tracks in the US. It's not a blanket statement because it's not allowed on some tracks all the time. See my comparison to the discount coupon.

It's like saying a discount coupon can be used at any retailer is still true even if a given retailer doesn' accept the coupon for a period, say during a weekend sales blowout. Or if they don't allow employees to benefit from it.

[caboose483]

Ok you don't know what blanket statements are. Check.

[Fiery254]

There are as yet undiscovered tribes in the heart of the Amazonian rain forest who just knew how this thread was going to end up.

[imnothng]

You can use it at US tracks? Not always. That's why it is inaccurate. They only valid rebuttal you can provide is that it wasn't a blanket statement to begin with. Either way, this is stupid and I'm repeating myself so I'm all done here.

For what's it worth, the completely makes sense to me. To say you can use it at US tracks is not accurate. Period. To say you can use at some US tracks may be accurate because there may be at least ONE track that would allow it somewhere in the states in all instances.

[fastar1]

So "It snows in Canada" is inaccurate because it doesn't snow here all the time.

Guess I learned something new today.

[fastar1]

Ok you don't know what blanket statements are. Check.

As ever, thanks for sharing your oh so supreme knowledge.

[Metastable]

If you take things at face value, my statement makes more sense than Caboose's first response.... because if you read both, you'd first think that you can use Engine Ice at any track day (this is the track day section btw) and if you read his, you'd think that there are many times where you can't use it. Further if you go on to read his statement about STT at Grattan and Mid-O,he is wrong.

Considering there would be so few times where Engine Ice couldn't be used, my statement is a pretty good one.

Now - if Caboose said, That is about right, except double check the organization you are with because the odd one might not allow Engine Ice then I'd say, yes Caboose is perfectly right. The way it was left it sounds like there are a ton of places where you can't use Engine Ice in the US, and that is simply not the case.

And just as another point, when we were talking to one of the lead instructors at Mid-O, he is a Marshall there too, and he didn't think Engine Ice was a big deal. Just saying... with DVS as my witness.

[kneedragger88]

Just adding my two cents
As for SOAR
NO ENGINE ICE If we catch you with it you will be sent home.
No need to play with it there is a suitable alternative WATER or WATER/WITH WATER WETTER.
Cant believe everyone is having this argument yet again. I suspect the people pro-engine ice are people that have not crashed in glycol nor have had to clean it up. Why risk it?
Their propaganda ads claiming blanket acceptance is at best misleading.