Rolling back on hills

[Gary64]

I've heard this argued both ways over the years, for both manual cars and bikes. Why is sitting stopped in first gear better/safer than neutral?

So you can quickly get out of the way of the cement mixer with no brakes behind you.

[Lightcycle]

So you can quickly get out of the way of the cement mixer with no brakes behind you.

But how will you ever play the bongos on your tank if you're in first gear...?

[bennyskywalker]

There seems to be an entire generation of riders that have no clutch control or feel for the friction zone.

First - my automatic car also has a handbrake. So the person that said Auto Cars don't have hand operated brakes - is dead wrong. Also, when starting in my manual car - on a hill - I never use the hand brake, I engage the clutch until I hit the friction zone - then depending on the hill - and the feel - I left my right foot off the brake - the car does not go backwards. In fact you should be able to hold the car still with only the clutch - and not brake - and no gas.

You should be able to do the same on the bike. In fact, if you know your friction zone - you can literally not even twist the throttle, and if you are carefull enough - you can get moving - on flat ground by letting the throttle out - don't give it gas - and let it out slowly and gradually until you have forward momentum. Let it out too fast and you'll stall.

I suggest developing better clutch control.

Using the rear brake to keep from rolling back while you try to get started... please. You guys that do that really need to practice a bit more.

[Baggsy]

Correct, it's for negatively accelerating.

fixed

[k-man69]

Guys ... y'all making it sound complicated.

Rear Brake
start giving some gas while releasing the clutch..... before you release the rear brake
you will feel the bike wanting to pull forward, at this point let go of the rear brake.

On a car it is the same thing with the hand brake.... although it isn't usually necessary if you have enough experience. I can usually be fast enough from brake to gas, while releasing the clutch with my feet, to not roll back (car).

Exactly my point with my previous post. It doesn't matter how steep the hill is, if you have experience driving a manual car and are proficient at it, you will not roll back. No need for the handbrake, just a little gas, then slowly release the clutch

[imnothng]

There seems to be an entire generation of riders that have no clutch control or feel for the friction zone.

First - my automatic car also has a handbrake. So the person that said Auto Cars don't have hand operated brakes - is dead wrong. Also, when starting in my manual car - on a hill - I never use the hand brake, I engage the clutch until I hit the friction zone - then depending on the hill - and the feel - I left my right foot off the brake - the car does not go backwards. In fact you should be able to hold the car still with only the clutch - and not brake - and no gas.

You should be able to do the same on the bike. In fact, if you know your friction zone - you can literally not even twist the throttle, and if you are carefull enough - you can get moving - on flat ground by letting the throttle out - don't give it gas - and let it out slowly and gradually until you have forward momentum. Let it out too fast and you'll stall.

I suggest developing better clutch control.

Using the rear brake to keep from rolling back while you try to get started... please. You guys that do that really need to practice a bit more.

It sure does seem that everyone was taught something different. But in your case I don't think I'd ever want to buy a vehicle from you. Please correct me if I'm wrong here, but from my understanding of how a clutch works. When you start to release the clutch and hit the friction point, that is when the clutch plate makes contact with the gear. By holding the clutch at the friction the point, the plate and gear are touching and creating lots of heat. Heat and friction both wear down metal faster the more of each you apply. Therefore, by sitting on a hill and just using a clutch to keep you in place is creating a crap load of friction and heat when it's not needed. Isn't that kind of stupid?

The first lesson my buddy taught me when I bought my manual car, was to go out in the country and teach me how to take off just using the clutch. Just because you can, doesn't really mean you should.

And what would you have me do in my little Ranger that has a floor parking brake?

[Tiggy]

let that ***** out and gas her...dont be afraid to pop a lil wheelie..hahah its all good fun. learn your friction point in a parking lot. no throttle needed just let the clutch out until you feel it grab and ride it at idle minimal throttle. practice.

[bennyskywalker]

I don't sit at a light on a hill with just the clutch engaged, that would be stupid. I suggest some practice in finding the friction zone so when you start you don't need to be braking, clutching, and giving gas.

What you are describing is called burning a clutch. If you are in the friction zone with no gas for a short period of time you won't burn your clutch. I don't burn my clutch and I have to be pretty careful (BMW dry clutch, those burn pretty easy)

Now sitting on a hill, applying the brake, sort of being in the friction zone, half in it, and revving high so you don't slide back, that will burn your clutch. If that describes your style... Then I wouldn't want to buy a vehicle from you. Notice I said apply no gas when practicing....

[polskachick]

Guys ... y'all making it sound complicated.

Rear Brake
start giving some gas while releasing the clutch..... before you release the rear brake
you will feel the bike wanting to pull forward, at this point let go of the rear brake.

On a car it is the same thing with the hand brake.... although it isn't usually necessary if you have enough experience. I can usually be fast enough from brake to gas, while releasing the clutch with my feet, to not roll back (car).

Simply put, thanks!

[Jonnie]

Getting in on this thread action too! lol

+1 to Rear Brake!

But most importantly stay calm, and take your time.

[sunnyCBR]

I grew up in the UK where it's a part of the driving test, and although I never drove there, my Dad taught me to always use the handbrake.

I learned how to drive a manual while living in the UK. Some of the hills there are intense and the people behind you don't give you an inch to roll back. Definitely every person I was in a vehicle with there, on a steep enough hill would use the hand brake. (Some would clutch stand, or be quick enough with their feet on some hills). It saved me from rolling into some pretty expensive cars while driving there!

[imnothng]

Is there a distance by law that the car behind you has to give?

[darazcal]

Rear brake...it's a wonderful thing.

[skitta]

There seems to be an entire generation of riders that have no clutch control or feel for the friction zone.

I suggest developing better clutch control.

Using the rear brake to keep from rolling back while you try to get started... please. You guys that do that really need to practice a bit more.

With all due respect, I'm not sure your first sentence is necessarily true. The technique that you prefer to use certainly does take practice (as with anything). I've tried it and right now, I find it much easier to use the rear brake.

Again, to go back to the time I was stranded going up Dewit Rd. I vividly remember trying to let out the clutch, use the throttle and slightly release the front brake. It's a technique not to be tried the first time you get stranded going up a hill. But, I did try, believe me.

Perhaps there is no "right or wrong" way; just different?

[Rohan27]

Is there a distance by law that the car behind you has to give?

I think there is one. I think its 2 meters or something.

[socially distorted]

+1 to Gary and Neil having the right foot on the brake is a good idea at ALL times when stopped regardless of whether a cage or your bike will illuminate your rear lights to lessen chance of rear-ender. The easiest way to learn going up hill without slipping back is to make use of the rear brake to stop any backslip. After you master that, then go ahead and try the fancy stuff like learning the friction point once you gain more experience. And who said there can only be one use for a car part? I always thought the term hand-brake and emergency brake in manual shift cares was interchangeable. It can be used to stop a car in case of brake failure, AND to stop from slipping back on a hill. Not all scenarios you can get away without using it: ie steep incline or a-hole right on your bumper. I'm no expert and its just my opinion, but its served me well in 35 years of street riding. Good luck and be careful everyone

[bennyskywalker]

With all due respect, I'm not sure your first sentence is necessarily true. The technique that you prefer to use certainly does take practice (as with anything). I've tried it and right now, I find it much easier to use the rear brake.

Again, to go back to the time I was stranded going up Dewit Rd. I vividly remember trying to let out the clutch, use the throttle and slightly release the front brake. It's a technique not to be tried the first time you get stranded going up a hill. But, I did try, believe me.

Perhaps there is no "right or wrong" way; just different?

Definitely keep practicing the brake lever-accelerator roll on. I'd try to use the front brake as opposed to the rear, I'm usually at lights with the front brake engaged. A couple weeks ago I found myself stopped on a steep gravel hill (cottage fire road). In that situation I guarantee you wouldn't look forward to lifting your right foot off the ground to brake to avoid rolling back.

Think of it this way, there will come a time when you need both feet planted before take off. So your right foot will be unavailable to apply the rear brake. Now I also guarantee in that same situation your right hand will be available for you to apply the front brake before/while you apply the throttle.

Anyway I guess the bottom line is just do what it takes to not roll back.

[polskachick]

Not sure where you are in Mississauga, but if you really want to get practice starting and stopping on either or both the incline and decline just off Speakman drive it's a parking lot to the building that says "body coat technologies" it's on the north side pretty much across the street from the school. If you go in there there is a really big hill that you can get practice going down then up the other side. good place to learn and get as much practice as you want.

Thanks! I'll go and practice!!

[El Zilcho]

Oh, Gawd, NO. This is called how to stall your bike at an intersection and get rear-ended. Bad idea.

You can stall your bike with the rear brake as well... Besides, most likely scenario to get rear-ended is when the vehicle behind you fails to stop in time and not so much when it starts moving too early.

[Petraeus]

This is what I do, have no problems, but then again i was driving standard years before i got my bike

A suggestion that may raise some eyebrows that can take some careful practice.

With bike in gear, clutch in, front brake on, and either foot down, palm the throttle open a bit to raise the revs, but still have your fingers on the front brake. Then smoothly coordinate the release of the clutch and front brake as you ease on the throttle.
You then have your options open on which foot or feet you are comfortable with on the ground.
Practice can make it work. Hope this helps