Managing amateur track day risk

[Ould]

Suffice it to say I've seen Pro 6 run 2 days at Calabogie with 1 red flag (in 'fastest' group) and track days at Calabogie where's there a red flag every hour without fail. Just ask anyone who attended the DOCC weekend.

Came here to say this. I too have been at 'bogie where there was a red flag every hour for the 2 days I was there and I have been when there has been no red flags at all. 'bogie is a weird place in this respect. It can be a clear sunny perfect day and there will be a red flag nearly every session and the next time same conditions and no red flags. Must be the way the stars are aligned, I have no explanation. My thoughts and condolences go out to all involved in Monday's tragedy, the families, marshals, the Pro6 crew and all in attendance.

I only ride with Pro6 Track Days and have every confidence that they run things as safely and organized as humanly possible, I will continue to give them my business and support. I will continue to ride the track as I feel it is the safest venue for our sport.

[caboose483]

Thanks for the feedback. I assumed, incorrectly, that a multi-bike crash is more likely due to some degree of recklessness rather than the unavoidable risks associated with track riding. In my mind, I was analogizing to skiing where people fall all the time as part of the sport, but a collision between two skiiers is almost always due to someone being reckless. I realize that at my relative inexperience, I'm probably the biggest risk on the track - to myself and others - until my skill level improves. And I meant no offense to Pro6 or anyone else (I too have heard that Pro6 is fantastic).

I dont think no matter how trajic an event like this may be it shouldnt be used as a catalyst to go on some track witchhunt. We dont even know what happened yet (at least I dont anyway). What I do know is Sandy and his crew run a tight day and I am confident that they did whatever they could to make it as safe as they could. Track is infinitely safer than street riding. Things happen from time to time, its horrible but its also inevitable.
We all as users have to look at our own barometer and decide what risk is acceptable to us and ride accordingly. For myself I am only comfortable on the track. I have not owned a streetbike in over 20 years and have no intention of buying one any time soon. At my shop I ride everything from 125s (stop laughing) to Goldwings with every supersport and cruiser in between daily. HATE every one of them I do the ride as short as I can and still get the info needed and straight back. Thats my comfort zone. I would not hesitate to do one of Sandy's trackdays. I have in the past and will in the future (if I can ever get five freakin minutes away from the bench).
I am gutted like most on the thread. Being a track operator myself I can also understand the other side and my heart goes out to the Pro6 team and the families and injured.
Let the info come out and get a solid understanding of the circumstances before starting to dissect the track riding orgs. Now is not the time.

To add to this... I really don't think there is anything to further examine. I don't think it really matters what happened, a mistake was made and this is the unfortunate outcome. I hope that everyone can use this as a reminder that there are risks involved in doing what we do. This isn't golf. As Ken wrote.. we all have our own barometers for what is an acceptable level of risk. Please acknowledge and accept the risks involved and make decisions accordingly, refusing to do so and riding in denial is not fair to your loved ones.

[spinto]

Thanks for the feedback. I assumed, incorrectly, that a multi-bike crash is more likely due to some degree of recklessness rather than the unavoidable risks associated with track riding. In my mind, I was analogizing to skiing where people fall all the time as part of the sport, but a collision between two skiiers is almost always due to someone being reckless. I realize that at my relative inexperience, I'm probably the biggest risk on the track - to myself and others - until my skill level improves. And I meant no offense to Pro6 or anyone else (I too have heard that Pro6 is fantastic).

Don't be discouraged. Green group/beginner level at a track day has many novice (to track) riders. Exactly where you skills are right now. The passing rules are clear and are designed to keep the riders safe. In most cases there are control riders that keep everyone honest. If you want to get up on the basics, get Twist of the Wrist 1 and 2. There is also a new dvd. You can prob find a lot of this on you tube.

I know of many who are distance riders that have gone to the track and they ride like they're touring!! They make it around and have fun!! they are amazed how much they learn since everyone is going in the same direction.



Go and have fun!!

[Franko!]

I only have one thing to add, everything else has been explained with great maturity.

In the intermediate group, some riders focus too much on passing, and not the next corner. This year alone, I have seen 3 people pass me and then crash/ride off the track at the next turn or the one after. When I am passed I remind myself to FOCUS on where I want to go, and not where the other bike is going. If they drive off, I don't want to follow them.

Overall, you have a lot of control. You don't always need to accelerate at 100% in the straights, sometime 95% is just enough to open up some space around you.

[Shaman]

From another forum:

From what I heard from people there with one of the injured riders, the two bikes that caused the accident were fooling around weaving side to side on the back straight and hit each other. The third bike rounded corner 4 (very fast corner) and had no time to react and hit one of the downed bikes. Pretty stupid. And they were in the fastest (advanced) group. Second session for that group of the day, everyone only got one session Monday.

I suspect there may be repercussions for the other two riders.

[murf]

Should be interesting, wonder how far the waivers will take them

[too much]

From another forum:

"the two bikes that caused the accident were fooling around weaving side to side on the back straight and hit each other"

I suspect there may be repercussions for the other two riders.

I'm one of the few people "touring" on the track, I try to enjoy, improve myself and have fun, and I don't think I managed this year to get 100% throtle on any of my 2 track days yet ... I try to keep the lines, get the most out of it and I really don't want to crash I have no problems riding in beginner... Nonetheless I have seen some really aggressive riders sometimes even in the beginner group (I think they were advanced but couldn't book in their group), and I keep thinking "it's a track day in the beginner group, it's not racing", although it doesn't look or feel like it ...

So the OP may be right in some aspects, there is a number of hotheads on the track at any time, and unless they are doing something ridiculous, the organizers may end up ignoring them.

[CrazyKell]

From another forum:



I suspect there may be repercussions for the other two riders.

Wow. If that is true....wow.

[invictus43]

Wow. If that is true....wow.

I heard from someone riding that day pretty much the same thing without the weaving part. Just a blind uphill corner and someone went through, couldn't see the problem and hit the previous wreck site. Apparently nobody was allowed to leave and the police interviewed people about what happened.

Pro6 is very professional and experienced in putting trackdays on. Unfortunately, with people riding around at high speed, things happen. The best racers in the world crash into each other. All you can do, as Brian so eloquently put it as usual, is mitigate the risk as best as possible.

[turbodish]

Should be interesting, wonder how far the waivers will take them

Waivers are about as effective as toilet paper in protecting an organization or its participants against legal action, especially if there is any hint of negligence involved, and everyone, track, organizers, officials includng marshals, participants directly involved, all tend to get named in the suit..

[invictus43]

Waivers are about as effective as toilet paper in protecting an organization or its participants against legal action, especially if there is any hint of negligence involved, and everyone, track, organizers, officials includng marshals, participants directly involved, all tend to get named in the suit..

Here's an interesting article on the aftermath of the Whistler Olympic death.

http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2010/02/17/...-luge-tragedy/

I think the key is showing that you did what was reasonably expected to conduct a safe date. The plaintiff would have to show "extreme negligence" which was unlikely I would say in this case. It won't stop anyone from being sued, but the waiver likely would have a large impact on the outcome of the suit.

[invictus43]

I only have one thing to add, everything else has been explained with great maturity.

In the intermediate group, some riders focus too much on passing, and not the next corner. This year alone, I have seen 3 people pass me and then crash/ride off the track at the next turn or the one after.

And I think we have to keep in mind that riders with lower skill are more likely to crash in the first place. They're simply learning. Pros hardly ever crash..they have great skill. Amateurs often crash..they're learning how to ride fast. So unfortunately, being in a slower class really isn't any great benefit as far as being less likely to be involved in a crash.

[Fiery254]

From another forum:

From what I heard from people there with one of the injured riders, the two bikes that caused the accident were fooling around weaving side to side on the back straight and hit each other. The third bike rounded corner 4 (very fast corner) and had no time to react and hit one of the downed bikes. Pretty stupid. And they were in the fastest (advanced) group. Second session for that group of the day, everyone only got one session Monday.

I suspect there may be repercussions for the other two riders.

There's no real reason anyone should want to speculate on what happened. The ^^^above account doesn't fit with turn 4 and the back straight. Any rider rounding turn 4 enters the back straight yes, but any riders 'who were fooling around weaving side to side on the back straight and hit each other' on the back straight would be far enough down the straight to be seen and avoided imho.

If anyone's going to post any details of the crash, and God knows why anyone wants to know, please make sure it's fact and fact only. This insatiable desire to be 'in the know' causes so much misinformation. And where peoples livelyhoods are at stake and where there may be leagl action we should all wind our collective necks in.

[Seoul Man]

I was there when it happened. All I am willing to say at this point is that there was no fooling around or riding wrecklessly as described in the quote. Whatever the cause that lead the 2 riders to crash into eachother, it wasn't because they were playing around on the track. The 2 riders were not known to eachother. The other 2 riders that were involved the accident were unfortunate victims of the aftermath of the intial accident. Pro6, the staff at Calabogie, the marshals and medics handled the situation very well. The paramedics responded very quickly and did everything they could. The accident had nothing to do with how Pro 6 ran the trackday or their professionalism or failing at any of their duties. Quite the opposite. At the end of the day, there is only 1 person riding each bike and we are all accountable for our own riding and there is only so much any trackday organization can do to control every rider.

[murf]

Here's an interesting article on the aftermath of the Whistler Olympic death.

http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2010/02/17/...-luge-tragedy/

I think the key is showing that you did what was reasonably expected to conduct a safe date. The plaintiff would have to show "extreme negligence" which was unlikely I would say in this case. It won't stop anyone from being sued, but the waiver likely would have a large impact on the outcome of the suit.

I recall alot of threads on how dangerous calabogie is in terms of runoff etc. We will see.

[Shaman]

I don't claim to be "in the know," but the original poster of that information does. All I can tell you is that I think knowing what happened may be important to the rest of us in that if we did see that sort of behaviour at some point, we should act in some way (like having a talk with the people involved either offline or "officiously"). If there is in fact no truth to the "weaving around" allegation, then good. I'm much more comfortable, speaking personally, that this incident would happen by rider error or mechanical failure than by horseplay.

And yes, murf, the track is not very friendly to a downed rider.

BTW, I personally was one of those track day riders that couldn't get a booking in the intermediate group and was riding far beyond the level of the beginners out there. I crashed partially as a result of that, as my rythm was all messed up when I caught a big group of newbies and I was impatient to get back up to speed (thus I pulled the wheel through the apex of 20 and lowsided). Don't misunderstand: 100% my fault but it's a mistake I won't make again... I'd rather wait for another day next time than deal with the risks of outpacing beginning riders so much.

Just as a related anedote, I remember coming through 4 myself on a pretty hot lap and finding a ninja 250 with a young (12yo?) fellow on it doing maybe 50km/h and right on the track-out of the racing line. Couldn't really see him coming up the hill until I was in the corner, what with our speed differences. Lucky for us, I still had some lean and grip left to pull an inside line. IIRC, I am deep into the revs in 3rd gear going through that corner.

None of this means I am judging any of the riders here personally. I don't know what happened and I'm saddened that anyone in our sport is hurt for any reason. I am not an authority on what happened during this tragedy.

[turbodish]

Here's an interesting article on the aftermath of the Whistler Olympic death.

http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2010/02/17/...-luge-tragedy/

I think the key is showing that you did what was reasonably expected to conduct a safe date. The plaintiff would have to show "extreme negligence" which was unlikely I would say in this case. It won't stop anyone from being sued, but the waiver likely would have a large impact on the outcome of the suit.

The waiver would have virtually no effect on the outcome. A defendant showing that he or she took reasonable measures to avoid unsafe conditions would help in supporting a defence of due diligence and care, but that would still not necessarily negate the awarding of hefty damages.

Even if you win or get off with alight damages award, you've still endured years of legal proceedings plus the legal costs that come with that.

Back to the waiver - how many have actually read the waiver that they sign? Check out some of the provisions in the standard waiver that we used for the auto track days we organized a few years ago at Mosport, Shannonville, Dunville, and see if you think all of them would pass muster in front of a judge:

1. An unqualified assumption by me of all risks associated with my participation in the event even if arising from the negligence or gross negligence, including the compounding of any or aggravation of injuries caused by negligent rescue operations or procedures, of the Releasees, as that term is defined below, and any person associated therewith or otherwise participating in the event in any capacity; and

2. A full and final release and waiver of liability and all claims that I have, or may in future have, against any person(s), entities or organization(s) associated in any way with the event including (snip section listing anyone and everyone) from any and all liability for any loss, damage, injury or expense that I may suffer as a result of my use or my presence at the event facilities or my participation in any part of, or my presence in any capacity at, the event, due to any cause whatsoever, INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE, GROSS NEGLIGENCE, BREACH OF CONTRACT, OR BREACH OF ANY STATUTORY OR OTHER DUTY OF CARE, INCLUDING ANY DUTY OR CARE OWED UNDER THE RELEVANT OCCUPIERS LIABILITY ACT ON THE PART OF THE RELEASEES.

There's more, including an agreement that your signature also binds any future acts by your heirs, next of kin, etc.

It's toilet paper. You cannot sign away certain legal rights for yourself let alone others, nor can any signature release others from being liable for negligent or grossly negligent acts.

[Blackie]

I don't claim to be "in the know," but the original poster of that information does. All I can tell you is that I think knowing what happened may be important to the rest of us in that if we did see that sort of behaviour at some point, we should act in some way (like having a talk with the people involved either offline or "officiously"). If there is in fact no truth to the "weaving around" allegation, then good. I'm much more comfortable, speaking personally, that this incident would happen by rider error or mechanical failure than by horseplay.

Then either the guy is making stuff up for attention, or he is regurgitating what another attention whore told him. What you described makes absolutely no sense. Yes, 4 is a blind corner but if the riders took the time to exit the corner then proceed to weave over the straight and then crashed, they would have covered more then enough ground for a person even coming out of 4 at top speed to have enough distance from the corner to the crash to react by stopping or pulling over. That straight is pretty long and wide.

OP, this is a tragic but very rare outcome as far as track days go. Off the top of my head I can only think of a single other occurrence in the past few years where some one has died as a result of a crash at a track day. Compare that to the number of motorcyclists who are killed on our streets in this city alone in a single month, the safety advantage of riding on a track is immense.

Crashing is just a part of the sport, it is inevitable. Majority of the people who have come out to the track more then once have crashed at least once. Majority of those crashes people simply walk away uninjured, some learn a lesson. In fact I have seen some spectacular crashes at high speeds that people simply walk away from. The sooner you accept that reality and make peace with it, the sooner you will be better equipped to becoming a safer and better track rider. Mitigate the risks to the best of your ability and ride smart. Invest in good gear to protect yourself, about the best investment you can make. If you find yourself riding with some one that makes you uncomfortable, pit in and put some distance between yourself and that rider. Majority of time a reckless rider takes himself out early (if they haven't already been taken off the track by the organizer) in the day and people quickly spot and recognize reckless riders and have a tendency not to ride beside them.

People in this sport take safety very seriously which is partly what makes this sport very safe if you consider the speeds we're moving at.

[Blackie]

There are many here that will provide the right advice and direction, PM and i'll let you who i trust!!

there is a Spinto approved list? Did I make it?? Do I get a decal?
wait.. who didn't make it? Who's Spintounnaproved!!

[kneedragger88]

As to waivers they are all standard Lloyds of London. We (all of the track/trackdays orgs) are through Lloyds. The waivers are supplied and they do check for signatures. SOAR also has a waiver that we use thats been lawyer approved. We have a long application to acquire liabilty insurance where they delve into our personal and operational background.
The insurance is not cheap however in a legal sense it is mandatory. We are a numbered limited company and carry heavy insurance as I would imagine every trackday org does. This would be handed to Jones Brown and ultimately Lloyds to handle with their team of lawyers.
Myself I am more concerned with the emotional state of the Pro6 team than the legal liability. The insurance company and their lawyers will deal with that.