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*EDIT BY PAUL*
Here's the truth about moderators. These are the folks that help keep GTAM somewhat clean and respectable. We want to welcome all riders and sometimes that means stopping internet arguments.
All the moderators here do a great job and are a critical part in the growth of this community. They take a lot of **** from users such as those who complain that one of their internet posts were deleted. All without asking for anything in return. They do it because they love this sport. They don't deserve to be insulted or disrespected. That's why any moderator insults results in a permanent ban.
So thank a mod instead. We couldn't do it with out them.
Thanks guys!
Cheers
Paul
Last edited by Paul; 03-23-2011 at 12:20 AM.
I thanked a moderator once. I got a reply reminding me for the 3rd time how fortunate I was to come across such a lenient and understanding moderator. What I didn't get was an answer to my question about what I said that was supposedly insulting. Guess I should start looking forward to my next infraction.
There is no planet B.
Anytime...PM me...I'll gladly let you know what you said that was insulting.Originally Posted by fastar1
Or...you can simply complain about it later. I'm always here to help explain folks. I'm at the bike shows (This weekend at the Better Living Centre and April 10=11 at the International Cetnre) if you want to talk personally about issues...I'm at all the sSOAR rounds...where ever you see the GTAM tent....I'm there to discuss any issues you may have. I'm really not that hard to get along with.
Cheers
Last edited by Paul; 03-24-2011 at 02:58 PM.
"When you invite the whole world to your party, inevitably someone pees in the beer."
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I don't intend to identify the mod so there's no need to PM. Besides, based on the common nature of people's complaints about the way the site is moderated it's more likely to be an issue endemic to GTAM rather than the fault of any number of individual moderators.Anytime...PM me...I'll gladly let you know what you said that was insulting.
Or...you can simply complain about it later. I'm always here to help explain folks. I'm at the bike shows (This weekend at the Better Living Centre and April 10=11 at the International Cetnre) if you want to talk personally about issues...I'm at all the sSOAR rounds...where ever you see the GTAM tent....I'm there to discuss any issues you may have. I'm really not that hard to get along with.
Cheers
I'll be happy to talk to you at the motorcycle show this weekend as well, but there are plenty of good reasons why this discussion should also take place in the forum in full view of anyone who migh have an interest in the matter. It makes sense for the same reason that it makes sense to have a public forum in the first place.
Of course, you may see fit to wipe out this post or this thread like so many others before it, for whatever arbitrary reason you choose, I'm just saying that approach would be detrimental to the health of the forum in the long run. You (and any member) could explain and defend the approach of the forum admins against the complaints of types like me, and in the end we will either come away with a better understanding of our place in the forum, or we could come away with a better forum (god forbid!) But those are really the only two possible outcomes since ultimately you can just revert to your old fall back position that "this is my forum not your forum if you don't like it you can go and play somewhere else". However that approach is exactly the same as saying "I'm not accountable to any members", which is clearly a rather short-sighted view of what it takes to operate a healthy forum.
So make that point number one. Instead of trying to quash complaints about the forum in PMs and deleted threads, let it out in the open where your judgement and reasoning (substantiated or not) can be assessed by GTAM members.
Take Yetti's posts that originated this thread as an example;
http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...=www.google.ca
While he may have been obnoxious, snide and even offensive, what's the value in deleting his comments outright? The offense had been committed but now nobody can ascertain the character of those involved for themselves. Instead, everything gets whitewashed and veneered over as if nothing ever happened and nobody has any better understanding of the issues than before. As far as I can tell, the only value is that it helps you avoid his issues altogether.
Other than that, deleting a*hole comments (I'm speaking in general now) forces people to have to keep discovering for themselves who the a*holes are, and who they can genuinely talk to. Not only that, but then other people who replied to the thread get their contributions wiped out like anything they had to say was deemed irrelevent by a higher power. So why should any of us put any effort to contribute something meaningful to a discussion if we all stand the chance of getting it wiped out because one guy was an idiot? Do you think so little of people's ability to contribute sensible replies that you can't let a conversation unfold on it's own? Is there no potential for people to talk things out amongst themselves without Big Brother stepping in every time there's a disagreement? None?
I guess that would be my points number two and three. Stop deleting people's offensive remarks, and stop deleting whole strings of conversation. I've had insults against me deleted when I really would have preferred that they remain. Deleting it only served to protect the offender from having to live under the shadow of his own idiocy. On the other hand, in some cases offensive comments are warranted depending on the context, or offense can be read into simple criticism depending on the reader's state of mind. I would say the same applies to certain "swear" words that can sometimes be used appropriately and sometime they can be abused, depending on the context, but I'll leave that lesser gripe alone for now. But when it comes to offensive posts, just let the readers judge for themselves rather than being the judge, jury and executioner for us all.
And that brings me to point number four. There is a definite power tripping tendency amongst some mods, as exemplified by the exchange I described in my previous post. Idealy, the moderating of the forum should be invisible to users. Of course that's not often possible but what we get on GTAM are mods jumping into threads in their capacity as mods and stirring things up worse than they were to begin with! In part that's a consequence of the heavy-handed deletion of whole swaths of conversation, which I already mentioned, but I've pretty much concluded that some mods they do it simply because they want the attention. It's another one of those things for which there doesn't seem to be any other explanation.
Speaking of explanations, isn't it reasonable to expect any mod who issues a warning, or an infraction, or deletes a post or bans a member, to be able to point out exactly what prompted the action when asked? It seems a lot of people are just left to guess about infractions and so on that they receive. This leaves us the option of only ever saying positive things, or just speaking our minds unfiltered since we don't know where the line is any more. So that's point number five. Mods should be able to explain their actions when asked, and the information should be available to whomever is aware of the infraction, not just to the individual in question.
OK, I'm done for now. I think that's the worst of my gripes with this forum. See you Saturday.
There is no planet B.
Moderator
Fastar1,are you in any way referring to the post of yours that i deleted in Banger's Ultimatum thread? Banger is a great person that is very passionate about some things.And she deserves respect.Your off topic post is just the kind of thing that takes a topic off on a tangent and makes the mods' jobs more difficult.Thoughts?
"If ya want me,I'll be in the bar"
Ric Waterloo
1800 Goldwing
2009 1100S Hypermotard (for sale)
944 Ducati track the "Blueberry Muffin"
Here's what I know about Trash Talk (where the "Ultimatum" thread is), taken from www.gtamotorcycle.com :
For all non-motorcycle-related topics that are Jerry Springer-like...**WARNING**swearing included and encouraged in this forum only, a lot will be moved here from other forums.
I don't make a habit of watching J. Springer, but I've seen a couple episodes, which probably amt to maybe 2 - 3hrs in total - lifetime. I did NOT notice anyone giving respect nor showing very much passion (in a logical way) to anyone else (maybe that's why I'm not a fan).
Why are 'certain' posters, and not others entitled to 'respect' in that section?
p.s. I'd PM admin, but that only brings down the ban hammer on me. I've tried in the past - NEVER again.
Moderator
I can see what you mean Gary.It is the tt section,agreed.The reason Banger posted it there was because she wanted to cut loose.Not because she wanted a Gerry Springer like reply from everone and anyone.If you feel that you or someone else has been disrespected,then please report it.Speaking for myself,i try my best to respect any and all.I can count on one hand the number of infractions i have given.If i find a post that is questionable,i will usually pm the person and ask them to edit it or delete it.I do this because i don't like the "hide behind the keyboard" thing.And i would like to think that as riders,we will all bump into one another eventually.I hope so that is! That's what GTAM is all about.
One last thought Gary.Maybe ask Paul or Donna if you could do mod duty for a few days.You might be surprised what a different perspective you see. regards Ric
"If ya want me,I'll be in the bar"
Ric Waterloo
1800 Goldwing
2009 1100S Hypermotard (for sale)
944 Ducati track the "Blueberry Muffin"
It would had been great if you guys had given the Yetti teh opportunity to be a moderator for a few days, maybe you would had been surprised
He managed to Moderate the conspiracy group very well - see as an example
yettiman121 - 10-10-2009, 08:22 AM
Cutekill has mentioned that the Timmay situation will be kept open on the boards, which means that it would be better for everyone if this conversation was kept out of here, and discussed over there
this is a closed social group, which means that Yetti is actually the moderator of this social group. Yetti would rather not start deleteing posts, and this would result in its own Conspiracy.
Yetti hopes you can understand why he'd like to keep this " Conspiracy " out of the conspiracy riders social Group,
PM Yetti if you cant
Say what you want about the guy, but he is pretty consistent on what he says, he didn't deleted others posts so he didn't like when his posts got deleted for no reason, he complained and Paul Ban him. To me this is just an example of what Fastar1 very well said
" And that brings me to point number four. There is a definite power tripping tendency amongst some mods, as exemplified by the exchange I described in my previous postpure" of course there is, it starts at the top with Paul over and over again showing a bad example on how to moderate
A per example one of Paul's responses to Yetti
Paul
Administrator
Re: Missing ZX10R.net member
Oh hang on there Pot.....you mean..like if you don't like the way GTAM is run...cancel your subscription and stop reading it? Numerous times you've mentioned how unhappy you are here. You've been told numerous times..if you don't like the rules...leave.
And here you are spewing that crap? Hypocrisy at it's BEST!
You're pathetic
Ummm Insulting the Yetti, I guess since he didn't leave he was showed the door...of course he couldn't do it right away, because that would had been to obvious
Last edited by ZX600; 03-25-2011 at 06:59 PM.
Paulo is protected by A.S.S.- Agave's Security Services
Actually I wasn't referring to that at all. My post was a jab in Banger's ribs but the thread took on a different, supportive, tone so in fact it's a good thing you deleted my post. Though if you hadn't deleted it, people would have seen me for the true prick that I was acting like.
Last edited by fastar1; 03-25-2011 at 07:42 PM.
There is no planet B.
I miss Yetti
but there is a....... stand in
I ride hard & fast on street and track.....get the right advice @ Riders Choice .......I dive deep with The Dive Academy in Oakville.....come dive with us
after seeing paul edit yetti's post i'm reminded of the time yetti posted about the baconator at wendy's in the review section. this is when you could post about restaurants in the review section. paul gave him an infraction and then edited the description of the review section to remove restaurants so that the infraction would be "valid". after that you couldn't convince me that it was not personal on paul's part with a waterboard and a hot poker... if it wasn't personal why make an infraction retroactive? and yes, i realize the spirit of the review section wasn't intended to review fast food chain items but it did meet the letter and you can bet that yetti rode his motorcycle there.
at least be honest about the fact yetti was banned because paul didn't like him.
x
You see fastar...this is the reason we don't bother explaining all the infractions. People will make up what they want anyway. And I'm ok with that. You can't please everyone.
As for your last statement Lisa....I'm not fond of anyone that can't respect other people or follow simple forum rules...so yes, most of the people that get banned I don't like...but that's not the reason they get banned. Keep in mind....there are also members I don't like that aren't banned.
See you at the show folks!
Cheers
"When you invite the whole world to your party, inevitably someone pees in the beer."
Visit Sponsors of GTAM!
Moderator
And one was even made a mod
Mental health who needs it?There is a reason you never see motorcycles infront of a therapists office.
everyone likes youAnd one was even made a mod
Paulo is protected by A.S.S.- Agave's Security Services
If it were me, I'd just succinctly rebuff whatever I disagreed with. You could say "You're wrong about 'x'". It doesn't have to be an argument, just something to indicate that the facts aren't straight or the full picture isn't know. It's better than letting that kind of information fester in silence.
There is no planet B.
just my .02 cents:
as a past moderator of a site with 25k+ active users for over a year and a half, the last year spent also as one of the site admin, i think it actually was important to deal with every infraction consistently and openly. it actually served as the basis from which to build credibility. within a month of laying this open ground work, 99% of the users understood clearly that there was no bias, no personal grudges, etc. involved in decisions, to the point where later infractions/bans were not really questioned, and in fact, the board began policing itself, as older members would take it upon themselves to point out the fairness of decisions.
it comes down to the concept of transparency, which breeds trust.
i'm not saying that's what is happening here, but i think there's a perceived gap.
i also recognize that the task is a thankless one, and for me at least, took up too much of my time when i did it. i finally just trained a half dozen good people and walked away. . .
Interesting from a moderator forum
taylor_smith
Tazmanian
Join Date: Apr 2010
Admin Experience: Intermediate
Location: Washington, D.C.
Posts: 314
No matter what happens, protect your image as someone who is professional and fair. Emotional outbursts, rash decisions, unjust bans, personal attacks, etc. can destroy your reputation in the blink of an eye. Be in the community, but remain above the fray as much as possible. Work harder than anyone else on your staff. Don't forget that the most important element of your community is just that--your community.
GOT That Paul!!! All of the above you have done with the Yetti at least. And you still haven't explained why you erased Yetti's first post, put your own comments and banned him. As we saw, his post didn't have anything offensive. I understand the concept of the straw that broke the camels back but as someone said that wasn't even a straw.
I guess you only care about your reputation around your friends that hang with you and "know you" i guess you don't care what the rest of your forum community thinks of you
Last edited by ZX600; 03-26-2011 at 10:52 AM.
Paulo is protected by A.S.S.- Agave's Security Services
Ok. Here's a hint. It wasn't yetti's first post that got him banned. It's the condescending, insults to a mod that got him banned.Interesting from a moderator forum
Tazmanian
Join Date: Apr 2010
Admin Experience: Intermediate
Location: Washington, D.C.
Posts: 314
No matter what happens, protect your image as someone who is professional and fair. Emotional outbursts, rash decisions, unjust bans, personal attacks, etc. can destroy your reputation in the blink of an eye. Be in the community, but remain above the fray as much as possible. Work harder than anyone else on your staff. Don't forget that the most important element of your community is just that--your community.
GOT That Paul!!! All of the above you have done with the Yetti at least. And you still haven't explained why you erased Yetti's first post, put your own comments and banned him. As we saw, his post didn't have anything offensive. I understand the concept of the straw that broke the camels back but as someone said that wasn't even a straw.
I guess you only care about your reputation around your friends that hang with you and "know you" i guess you don't care what the rest of your forum community thinks of you
"When you invite the whole world to your party, inevitably someone pees in the beer."
Visit Sponsors of GTAM!
How by Private PM? on the original post? on another thread, because talking to Yetti he is as surprised as anyone else, meaning he has no clue. I figure if he had insulted someone he would know. Care to give details since you are implying he used insults to offend a mod or are you just saying this to save face?
I can get his permission to post any of his private messages to any Mod in here, so as you always say prof talks louder than just words
I will take back everything I said if you can show me the prof he insulted a mod where said mod didn't insult him first so show the entire conversation.
Last edited by ZX600; 03-26-2011 at 11:16 AM.
Paulo is protected by A.S.S.- Agave's Security Services
can only go by what we observe. I am talking about one instance of changing goal posts and retroactive infractions here, I've seen the PM's between you and yetti from that particular situation and saying how it looks. I'll paraphrase your comment to yetti "Thanks for ruining it for everyone else, now no one can post restaurant reviews in the review section". tell us, how should changing the rules after giving an infraction for a post that fit into the letter of the rules so the infraction would stand look? I'm not saying other times yetti's infractions weren't deserved but that time makes you look like you're just making stuff up as you go along and calls into question anytime it's border line.You see fastar...this is the reason we don't bother explaining all the infractions. People will make up what they want anyway. And I'm ok with that. You can't please everyone.
As for your last statement Lisa....I'm not fond of anyone that can't respect other people or follow simple forum rules...so yes, most of the people that get banned I don't like...but that's not the reason they get banned. Keep in mind....there are also members I don't like that aren't banned.
See you at the show folks!
Cheers
As for talking to you about the board in person the last (and only time) i suggested something in person the hostility I received made it clear to me you did not want to hear anything about the system.
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