1st ticket

[VifferFun]

No politician would want to touch me with a 10' pole as his opposition would bury him in "think of the children" drivel. I'd also be going up against several very powerful organizations. That's why the most practical solution is via the court system.

Well, perhaps you should think more of the children?

The best way to reduce environmental impact would be to build a proper public transit infrastructure. That would reduce pollution a hell of a lot more than low speed limits. It would also make the roads safer as there would be fewer vehicles traveling them.

No arguments there, but public transit doesn't do much to help those living outside of major metropolitan areas. Some of the most dangerous roads I drive are in rural areas where the roads are snow packed and there are cars mere feet away traveling in the opposite direction.

[turbodish]

Well, perhaps you should think more of the children?

Yeah, really. Funny how some people seem to think that the lives and limbs of their children, spouse, parents, friends and neighbours are somehow more important than saving some self-confessed and self-absorbed habitual speeder a scant few minutes on the morning commute.

[FiReSTaRT]

I love it how you guys assume that I'm "self-confessed," "self-absorbed" or that I don't actually think of other road users' safety. I drive according to the conditions. If I do see children on the sidewalk (as I routinely drive by a couple of schools), I slow down to speeds that will allow me to react in time in case any one of them decides to run across the road without looking (which is usually at or below the limit). I make sure not to overdrive my headlights and not to drive too fast for the road conditions/visibility. In most other jurisdictions that's at the speed limit ballpark. On most Ontario roads I could go 20-30-50 over the limit and the only thing I'd have to worry about are the cops.

[VifferFun]

I love it how you guys assume that I'm "self-confessed," "self-absorbed" or that I don't actually think of other road users' safety. I drive according to the conditions. If I do see children on the sidewalk (as I routinely drive by a couple of schools), I slow down to speeds that will allow me to react in time in case any one of them decides to run across the road without looking (which is usually at or below the limit). I make sure not to overdrive my headlights and not to drive too fast for the road conditions/visibility. In most other jurisdictions that's at the speed limit ballpark. On most Ontario roads I could go 20-30-50 over the limit and the only thing I'd have to worry about are the cops.

I never said that you were being irresponsible. I just said that the law is the law, and we must obey it or accept the consequences if we get caught. If you are knowingly breaking the law and get caught, you really have no one to blame but yourself. I knowingly break the law too (about 20% over the limit), but if I get pulled over, I'm not going to blame the police for it.

[FiReSTaRT]

I never said that you were being irresponsible. I just said that the law is the law, and we must obey it or accept the consequences if we get caught. If you are knowingly breaking the law and get caught, you really have no one to blame but yourself. I knowingly break the law too (about 20% over the limit), but if I get pulled over, I'm not going to blame the police for it.

I'm not blaming the police either. I'm blaming the way they are utilized. I am even working on changing it. It's just that some of you don't agree with my methods. Pure democratic means don't work because the "think of the children" (*) lobby is too strong so it's political suicide. Therefore, I had to find other lawful means to change the situation. To have teeth, the HTA has to have the courts behind it and that means that every accused person gets his/her day in court. I just advise people not to neglect their rights.

(*) I am not saying that we shouldn't put in a reasonable effort to protect our kids. "Think of the children" is a reference from the Simpsons, to people who overreact and overprotect their kids. Did you know that in many schools, a kid can't even bring a pb&j sandwich? Such b.s. was brought on by that particular crowd.

P.S. When/where I was a kid, we didn't have school buses. Instead, our parents taught us to look left and right before crossing and to cross only at designated crossovers. In the 24 years since I went to elementary school, I have yet to hear of a kid getting hit by a car speeding through there (and they occasionally do). Compare that to oversheltered kids here, who grew up with school buses and are now too stupid not to walk down the middle of the road. Instead of making up a bunch of stupid laws to protect our kids from God and Darwin, maybe we should teach them some common sense.

P.P.S. When I stated my opinions on the walking down the middle of the road topic, I actually had some dumbass parent snap at me. I politely told him to GTFO my face and if his kid gets run over like that, it's his fault. I also politely inquired whether he had any other questions or whether he was going to leave me alone, to which he turned around and left, muttering under his breath

[roadtoruin]

I just said that the law is the law, and we must obey it or accept the consequences if we get caught.

Yup you're right, the law is the law and that includes the courts finding people guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Them's the law.

[VifferFun]

I'm not blaming the police either. I'm blaming the way they are utilized. I am even working on changing it. It's just that some of you don't agree with my methods. Pure democratic means don't work because the "think of the children" (*) lobby is too strong so it's political suicide. Therefore, I had to find other lawful means to change the situation. To have teeth, the HTA has to have the courts behind it and that means that every accused person gets his/her day in court. I just advise people not to neglect their rights.

Yes, it is definitely your right, but as another member already pointed out, I don't think it will do much to further your cause. If the courts start to fill, then they will enforce heftier penalties as a deterrent. As an extreme example, would you speed less if the fine were $5000 for 20kph over? I know I sure wouldn't! (I am not advocating that this is the way it should be :P)

(*) I am not saying that we shouldn't put in a reasonable effort to protect our kids. "Think of the children" is a reference from the Simpsons, to people who overreact and overprotect their kids. Did you know that in many schools, a kid can't even bring a pb&j sandwich? Such b.s. was brought on by that particular crowd.

Yes, I knew the Simpsons reference when you mentioned it the first time

P.S. When/where I was a kid, we didn't have school buses. Instead, our parents taught us to look left and right before crossing and to cross only at designated crossovers. In the 24 years since I went to elementary school, I have yet to hear of a kid getting hit by a car speeding through there (and they occasionally do). Compare that to oversheltered kids here, who grew up with school buses and are now too stupid not to walk down the middle of the road. Instead of making up a bunch of stupid laws to protect our kids from God and Darwin, maybe we should teach them some common sense.

Yes, common sense is becoming less common these days.

[FiReSTaRT]

Yes, it is definitely your right, but as another member already pointed out, I don't think it will do much to further your cause. If the courts start to fill, then they will enforce heftier penalties as a deterrent. As an extreme example, would you speed less if the fine were $5000 for 20kph over? I know I sure wouldn't! (I am not advocating that this is the way it should be :P)

What you're talking about will come anyway. It's already close enough due to the consequences to insurance rates. The government just has to match the amounts and they're set. There's always a "reasonable" justification to make the laws tighter and enforcement more intensive. We're just moving in baby steps.

[VifferFun]

What you're talking about will come anyway. It's already close enough due to the consequences to insurance rates. The government just has to match the amounts and they're set. There's always a "reasonable" justification to make the laws tighter and enforcement more intensive. We're just moving in baby steps.

The insurance increases for minor convictions are, well, minor. In general:

1st Minor Conviction = Freebie
2nd and Subsequent Minor Conviction = 10% Increase

[FiReSTaRT]

The insurance increases for minor convictions are, well, minor. In general:

1st Minor Conviction = Freebie
2nd and Subsequent Minor Conviction = 10% Increase

My 3rd one put me into facility.. And it was for 5 over by a Sudbury cop hunting out-of-town students. That's when I learned to never bend over and just pay up. I get ticketed about once a year. In the last 9 years, I've been convicted once.

[VifferFun]

My 3rd one put me into facility.. And it was for 5 over by a Sudbury cop hunting out-of-town students. That's when I learned to never bend over and just pay up. I get ticketed about once a year. In the last 9 years, I've been convicted once.

I don't know what you're doing to attract the attention of the police? Back when I was a little bit more crazy, I used to be pulled over frequently as well; however, now that I keep it within 20% of the speed limit most of the time, I haven't been pulled over in about eight years.

[FiReSTaRT]

You're west of Toronto and I'm in west Toronto. Plus I drive through several areas where the speed limits are really ridiculous (one stretch that I frequently take could safely have a limit that's 40-50km/h higher), there's an outpost walking distance from my place with a lot of speed trap activity and I rarely at times when it's really unsafe to speed, so the factors add up. Ironically I do a lot of management (full stops before right on red and on stop signs, plates always up to date, docs always there, safety issues taken care of immediately, signal well before any turn/lane change/lane split-off, watch the sharpness/frequency of my lane changes), but this area is crawling with 5-0. My last ticket was 65 in 50, where it's safe enough to do 70-80, in November of 09 (mid-day, dry road). Well, he lied that I was doing 75, but both my nav GPS and my (higher accuracy) GPS data logger didn't show anything over 65. In any case he did me the "favour" of "lowering" my speed to 65 and promised to lower it even more if I took the ticket to court
Too bad the Crown was too lazy to prep a disclosure package for me after 2 requests

[VifferFun]

You're west of Toronto and I'm in west Toronto. Plus I drive through several areas where the speed limits are really ridiculous (one stretch that I frequently take could safely have a limit that's 40-50km/h higher), there's an outpost walking distance from my place with a lot of speed trap activity and I rarely at times when it's really unsafe to speed, so the factors add up. Ironically I do a lot of management (full stops before right on red and on stop signs, plates always up to date, docs always there, safety issues taken care of immediately, signal well before any turn/lane change/lane split-off, watch the sharpness/frequency of my lane changes), but this area is crawling with 5-0. My last ticket was 65 in 50, where it's safe enough to do 70-80, in November of 09 (mid-day, dry road). Well, he lied that I was doing 75, but both my nav GPS and my (higher accuracy) GPS data logger didn't show anything over 65. In any case he did me the "favour" of "lowering" my speed to 65 and promised to lower it even more if I took the ticket to court
Too bad the Crown was too lazy to prep a disclosure package for me after 2 requests

We have police in my area too, and five of the last eight years (where I have never been pulled over) were right in Toronto (and logging MANY kilometers). Keep it within 20% of the speed limit (i.e. 60kph is the max you should do in a 50kph zone) and the police will leave you alone. If you exceed 20% of the speed limit, you are at an increased risk of being pulled over. Yes, I agree the speed limits are ridiculous in some areas, but limit is what it is and I keep to my 20% rule so that I'm not pulled over. Saving 1 minute of my life isn't worth the hassle of a conviction.

Yes, you will get the "jerk" officer every now and then who will pull you over below the 20% threshold, but you certainly shouldn't encounter them frequently enough that you will develop a poor conviction history as a result. If I could do five years in Toronto without incident, surely everyone should be able to do two or three (assuming I just got lucky).

[FiReSTaRT]

If you drive by a police station 3-4 times a day, chances are you'll get pulled over at least once a year. I've been pulled over for as little as 5 over the 60km/h limit (the car was a neutral-colored family sedan). Of course, that particular cop was fishing for out of town students at a time when the court dates would have come up during their summer breaks and they'd have had to drive 100's or 1000's of km's to dispute their charges.
I forgot to add another management measure: My cages are always either family vehicles or work vehicles in neutral colors and without any bumper stickers or vanity plates. I aim for "responsible-looking" and "forgettable." The only exception was the little Precidia that I got when I was desperate for a car and that was too good of a deal to pass up on. Got pulled over the day after I got it insured and started driving it. Fortunately the ticket that I received was my insurance broker's fault (they misdated the slip) so they paid for my representation

[VifferFun]

If you drive by a police station 3-4 times a day, chances are you'll get pulled over at least once a year. I've been pulled over for as little as 5 over the 60km/h limit (the car was a neutral-colored family sedan). Of course, that particular cop was fishing for out of town students at a time when the court dates would have come up during their summer breaks and they'd have had to drive 100's or 1000's of km's to dispute their charges.

I drive by a police station twice a day . . . no issues. I also drive through many speed traps in a given week, and as long as I keep to my 20% rule, they don't bother me (even if I'm on my SS bike). Perhaps I'm naive, but I don't think the police are fishing for easy catches like you think they do.

I agree that being pulled over for 5kph over the limit is beyond ridiculous, but this certainly shouldn't happen more than once in a three year time span unless you are VERY unlucky.

[FiReSTaRT]

In any case it's rare enough and I manage my charges well by disputing each and every one of them. Combine that with my age/vehicles and my rates get to be pretty good.

[VifferFun]

In any case it's rare enough and I manage my charges well by disputing each and every one of them. Combine that with my age/vehicles and my rates get to be pretty good.

Do what you gotta do I suppose

[FiReSTaRT]

Do what you gotta do I suppose

It's just that we're kinda forced to over here.. I never do unsafe speeds but most times I'm not thinking "safety." I'm thinking "cops." I've put on thousands of kilometers overseas on 2 different continents and I've never seen myself go more than 10 over the limits (in most cases at or below). That's because in most other places engineers set the limits and not politicians.
My moment of revelation was when I was driving on a European country road with a speed limit of 60, fast enough to keep things interesting but slow enough to leave a good safety margin and saw a speed trap... At first I panicked, then I looked at the speedo to see how much I'll need to grease the cop.. Then I noticed I was doing 55. That would have never happened in Ontario as they'd put 60km/h limits on roads that are safe for speeds of 80-110. Then I started keeping better track of my speeds both in Europe and South America.. 95% of the time I was within limits, and 5% of the time I was doing like 10 over.

[VifferFun]

It's just that we're kinda forced to over here.. I never do unsafe speeds but most times I'm not thinking "safety." I'm thinking "cops." I've put on thousands of kilometers overseas on 2 different continents and I've never seen myself go more than 10 over the limits (in most cases at or below). That's because in most other places engineers set the limits and not politicians.
My moment of revelation was when I was driving on a European country road with a speed limit of 60, fast enough to keep things interesting but slow enough to leave a good safety margin and saw a speed trap... At first I panicked, then I looked at the speedo to see how much I'll need to grease the cop.. Then I noticed I was doing 55. That would have never happened in Ontario as they'd put 60km/h limits on roads that are safe for speeds of 80-110. Then I started keeping better track of my speeds both in Europe and South America.. 95% of the time I was within limits, and 5% of the time I was doing like 10 over.

I'm not arguing that limits perfect here, I'm just saying that they are what they are. Break the limit with the understanding that there may be consequences. No one is "forcing" us to speed . . . I get to where I need to go in a reasonable amount of time by staying within 20% of the posted limit.

[FiReSTaRT]

I'm not arguing that limits perfect here, I'm just saying that they are what they are. Break the limit with the understanding that there may be consequences. No one is "forcing" us to speed . . . I get to where I need to go in a reasonable amount of time by staying within 20% of the posted limit.

Laws are not perfect and they were made to be disputed. Let's put it this way.. If I had any Japanese-Canadian friends during WW2, I'd have hid them in my basement instead of allowing for them to be taken to concentration ("internment") camps. I like Aquinas' message and that's why I'll fight any laws that interfere with my normal behavior and that I don't approve of (for rational reasons), from within the system.