Reddawn track days?

[john bickle]

The Reality,
Now that the thread and postings were made to verify and confirm it is dangerous to others to run other then water,,,any organizer or track that does allow it could be deamed liable "if" something did happen. Lack of showing "Due Dilagence" is a big issue in this sport. Allowing coolant and endangering others is just stupid! If participants don"t know, that's one thing,,organizers have a responsibility.

[Ben G]

The Reality,
Now that the thread and postings were made to verify and confirm it is dangerous to others to run other then water,,,any organizer or track that does allow it could be deamed liable "if" something did happen. Lack of showing "Due Dilagence" is a big issue in this sport. Allowing coolant and endangering others is just stupid! If participants don"t know, that's one thing,,organizers have a responsibility.

.......... and here in lies the problem, ANYBODY can host a track day, qualified or not .......... soon there will be another word attached "Responsibility and Accountability" and then ......... BG

[08CBR1000]

The Reality,
Now that the thread and postings were made to verify and confirm it is dangerous to others to run other then water,,,any organizer or track that does allow it could be deamed liable "if" something did happen. Lack of showing "Due Dilagence" is a big issue in this sport. Allowing coolant and endangering others is just stupid! If participants don"t know, that's one thing,,organizers have a responsibility.

I think that would be a tough sell, everyone is explained the rules and dangers and they all sign the waiver releasing all liability so as long as you explain everything to the participants and they sign that waiver your pretty much on your own if someone crashes and you crash because of it. Keep in mind that due dilagence would be to clean up the material and spill off the track and make people aware that there was oil or possibly coolant in that area so it still may be slick so avoid that line or even mark it as a hazard.

John B. I see you have started a thread with regards to engine ice. That is a great idea for us Canadians to use if the components are easier to clean up than regular coolant. Very interesting, something that track managment and or organisors should look at.

[reciprocity]

Waivers are only as good as the paper they are written on.

If someone gets hurt and decides to sue, a decent lawyer will tear apart any waiver quite easily.

[caboose483]

John B. I see you have started a thread with regards to engine ice. That is a great idea for us Canadians to use if the components are easier to clean up than regular coolant. Very interesting, something that track managment and or organisors should look at.

John did not start that thread.

[woodzee]

.... Keep in mind that due dilagence would be to clean up the material and spill off the track and make people aware that there was oil or possibly coolant in that area so it still may be slick so avoid that line or even mark it as a hazard......

Actually that's only partially correct due diligence is that they did everything possible to prevent the act from happening. They must show that they took every reasonable precaution.

It is true that an organzier must also inform every single rider of any changes in the race track surface whether it's an oil spill, coolant, weather, etc. to also do their due diligence to inform all riders of the change.

Failure to do any or all of the above may be considered negligence. As well as have inadequate marshalls and/or medics, etc., etc. the list goes on. You must do everything in your power to ensure the safety of all riders on the track. And even that might not help you.

The standard has been set in any business model with the Ontario Health & Safety Act which affects every single business in ontario to help maintain safety to customers & employees a like. These ideals have already make it to the track in an incident at Mosport a few years back which caused the termination of a trackday company after it went to court. The risk is there for promotors it's in there best interest to do everythign possible to make it safe for all unless they are willing to sacrifice everything they own or will own for the rest of there life because for negligence.

Forget the Engine Ice it still has glycol in it. It's a little better than regular coolant but not as good as water. Water is cheaper....just use that.

[08CBR1000]

John did not start that thread.

Yes your write my mistake, I was interested in his post.

[kellen]

Yes your write my mistake, I was interested in his post.

so much win in this post

[FriendlyFoe]

there's a member i know off two other forums who works for tony's track days in the north eastern US and they dont require coolant being removed, nor does EMRA track days out west. There's lots of places that you dont have to remove coolant to come do a day, and that also do zero or next to zero tech. Maybe one day someone will sue and all that will change, but for the time being it doesn't seem to be a big issue. From my limited experience oil is every bit as likely to end up on the track as coolant, if not more so. I'd think the waiver would cover fluids or bike parts left on the track causing you to crash, and most importantly that YOU acknowledge the risks associated with being out there.

[john bickle]

There's lots of places that you dont have to remove coolant to come do a day, and that also do zero or next to zero tech. Maybe one day someone will sue and all that will change, but for the time being it doesn't seem to be a big issue. From my limited experience oil is every bit as likely to end up on the track as coolant, if not more so. I'd think the waiver would cover fluids or bike parts left on the track causing you to crash, and most importantly that YOU acknowledge the risks associated with being out there.

Wow,, we just are not getting this are we.
First off,,"Most" decent track day organizers require you to have oil retaining lowers. So "if" you had one it would retain all if not most of the oil. Which has proven to work.
The point here is,"it's not about you" If you have respect and concern for your fellow riders then you would run water and have an oil retaining lower. WHY? Becasue your buddy is the one most likely to crash in it.
An organizer that does not require water is an idiot! Yes! I said it! They have no respect for you and your money nor the damage to the track nor the injuries that may result. It is a simple cash grab and not a serious business. And the waiver you signed,,,,any good lawyer can have fun with that.
The fact that a good organizer demands it,, is pretty simple,,cause they know and you don"t. So assuming "but for the time being it doesn't seem to be a big issue. "
is why you need a good organizer to make you do what is mechanically correct and ethically correct.
I've spent over 25 years racing and 7 years instructing. I have seen stuff I hope none of you ever do! Fact is, yes, stuff does happen,,,,working hard as a group to minimize "stuff happening" is progression! If you wish to regress,,,get the hell out of this sport,,,,please!

[reciprocity]

Hahhahahaha,

You're a$e$ome bick.

Beer's on me at the daytona party

[FriendlyFoe]

Wow,, we just are not getting this are we.
First off,,"Most" decent track day organizers require you to have oil retaining lowers. So "if" you had one it would retain all if not most of the oil. Which has proven to work.

An organizer that does not require water is an idiot! Yes! I said it! They have no respect for you and your money nor the damage to the track nor the injuries that may result.

I have seen stuff I hope none of you ever do! Fact is, yes, stuff does happen,,,,working hard as a group to minimize "stuff happening" is progression! If you wish to regress,,,get the hell out of this sport,,,,please!

I'm not arguing with you, trust me even if it's not required i change over to water just out of respect for the other people who've paid to use the track.

First of all what track day org requires oil retaining fairings? Thats race stuff i haven't heard of anywhere that requires a contained belly pan to do a track day, just tape the lights and switch to water.

My point was about the arguement of liability, and saying anyone would have to be insane to let people with coolant run. It's a simple fact that there are LOTS of track days that suggest changing to water, but dont do any tech past obviously unsafe bikes/loose parts. I agree with you that i'd prefer to be somewhere that requires water however it's not like this is the one organization that is operating differently and recklessly, i'd say the vast majority of track days dont inspect bikes for having water in them or even require it.

It'd be great if every track day had as much tech as a race day, but thats not how track days are geared. I agree with you man, i just think that this is as much the norm as track days with higher standards.

[Freddie]

Hey,

I am completely new to road racing or track days. I have done a couple years of supermoto at Shanny and now would like to start out doing a few track days on my new to me 2007 zx6 track bike. The first thing I did was drain the anti freeze and put in water with water wetter. I now started drilling bolts that hold any thing with fluids so that I can safety wire them.

I do this out of respect for my fellow riders and I would hate to be the cause of a serious accident.

What else do I need to do before I go out on the track???

Do I have to run engine covers.

Thanks

Freddie

[reciprocity]

you don't HAVE to.

If you're already drilling stuff, you might as well get them, it'll save you an early trip home as well.

Most OEM case covers are like glass, one little smack and you're going home right away. The race units will usually survive a crash or 2.

find a used set of race units and keep your OEM units as spares.

Donovan

[Freddie]

you don't HAVE to.

If you're already drilling stuff, you might as well get them, it'll save you an early trip home as well.

Most OEM case covers are like glass, one little smack and you're going home right away. The race units will usually survive a crash or 2.

find a used set of race units and keep your OEM units as spares.

Donovan

Where is a good place to look for used race stuff????

Where should I spend my money on. ( steel brake lines,race pads,rear sets)

I know I am going of topic here but I do want to be set up properly and safely to get the best experience out of my first track day.

Thanks Donovan

[reciprocity]

Where is a good place to look for used race stuff????

My house

[Brian P]

An example of a large, reputable, track day organization in the USA is Sportbike Track Time http://www.sportbiketracktime.com/ unfortunately their web site is currently getting reworked, but I found the tech requirements here http://www.sportbiketracktime.biz/Polices.aspx Note that glass has to be taped over or removed, and they require water in the Advanced and Intermediate groups (I don't know why the distinction, but whatever ...) and they accept Engine Ice.

I have yet to see a track day organizer require oil-retaining lower fairings. But, if you are going to buy race fiberglass for your bike, it only makes sense to get a set with the oil-retaining lowers.

Anyway, to address Freddie's question. Certain bike models are required to have toughened engine covers - these are models in which there is oil inside those covers and they're known to be fragile. BUT, like Donovan said, it's a good idea to do this on any bike that has engine covers in exposed places (most inline fours).

The list of things that have to be done for a race bike is the same as the list you *should* do for a track bike - most track days won't require all of this but it's better to do it because then you'll have no issues: Change the coolant out for water, take off the mirrors and signals and license plate and associated mounting brackets, tape over or remove the speedo (not applicable if the speedo is in the same instrument face as the tach). Safety wire: Oil drain plug, oil fill cap, oil filter (if it's a spin-on, put a hose clamp around it and safety wire that), coolant hose clamps, radiator cap, any bolt that secures a coolant pipe in place, brake caliper mounting bolts, brake line banjo bolts, oil line banjo bolts (if present), the nut on top of the steering head. WERA requires exhaust system retaining nuts to be wired - this includes the outer header bolts and both ends of the bracket that holds your muffler i.e. the clamp bolt around the muffler itself and the bolts between the bracket and the frame of the bike. If there is doubt, wire it. Pick up a rule book for any roadracing organization and follow their tech guidelines.

What should you spend money on, beyond the above? First tires, then suspension, then stuff to make crashes less costly (bodywork, exhaust system, break-away levers and/or spare levers and footpegs), then sprockets to get the gearing right. Most modern bikes have brake lines that are plenty good enough, and you don't need fancy rearsets although in some cases they can be cheaper or easier to repair than standard footpegs.

I've had the same race/track bike for 14 years (Yamaha FZR400). It has fiberglass bodywork, suspension work (front and rear), steering damper, engine case covers, sprockets, rejetted carbs with the stock airbox in place. The engine has 0.5mm overbore and the head has been milled but that's only because it had to come apart at some point anyway. It's basically stock because it's the most reliable that way. Stock footpegs, stock brake calipers, stock master cylinder, because all that is good enough - and that's on a 22 year old bike. If I wanted to, I could put all the street stuff on and take it on the road.

[john bickle]

An oil retaining lower isn"t mandatory but again,,,working towards it is respecting your fellow riders and the track time others are paying for.
An organization that has lax technical inspection and rules is just asking for stuff to happen. It's easy to have no rules! Yes, most organizations start out that way.
But is it fair to paying customers to allow others to waste their time and money? So you spend time on your bike and some guy that coluld care less throws anti-freeze down and you miss two sessions becasue he can"t spend the time?
Just because someone doesn"t make you do something doesn"t mean it's right!
I've spent a good amount of time to help make this sport safer,,,,and sorry,,,but when I see people crash and get seriously hurt or worse it bothers me. So I don"t apoligize for being a bit sensitive about safety! Being pro active to prevent injuries is harder then being re-active.

[john bickle]

Hahhahahaha,

You're a$e$ome bick.

Beer's on me at the daytona party

Wohoo!

[08CBR1000]

Hey Jonh B, the LP race coolant which is recognized and accepted in AMA is what I put in my bike last night. My question is will this be accepted in the local race organizations SOAR etc..

Thanks