Off Duty Police officer, tries to race me then gives me a ticket

[turbodish]

Your logic is incorrect. That the driver was at some point going faster does not negate that the same driver was at some point going at a lesser but still illegal speed. In that case, charging for the lesser but known speed is still a proper and accurate charge.

“I find the reasoning of the Court in Nicholas v. Penny highly persuasive and I am prepared to follow it. In short I would hold where evidence is given that over a measured level distance, the speedometer recorded steadily at 95 miles per hour, this is prima facie evidence that the offence of driving at 90 miles per hour was committed, in the absence of some evidence, elicited either on cross-examination or by defence witnesses which would suggest that the speedometer on the police vehicle was inaccurate.”

Cops are permitted to lay charges for less than the actual observed offence. They do it all the time.

[turbodish]

To your last statement - I understand the theory - it is like carpet bombing - the target is in this 2 mile stretch, so we'll level it all, and we'll get it. That cannot be the case in court - the charge must be accurate, and the evidence to support it must also be accurate and complete. Hearing an argument of - well, I estimated that he was travelling at least 130 in a 60 zone (70 over) so we laid a charge for 49 over. Remember part 1 and part 3 offenses? Proper charge for offense commited. Further, as Police officers (on or off duty) they have a required obligation by legislation to seize the vehicle for street racing (or 50 over, take your pick) and they failed to do so, which calls their estimation of speed into doubt.

Dude, I could do this all day.

Cops are required to impound vehicle and suspend license only when a driver is actually charged under HTA172. Cops can still exercise discretion as to what charge is laid. There is nothing in the legislation that requires the cop to impose a 7-day HTA172 impound/suspension if the cop has chosen to exercise discretion and issue a simple non-HTA172 speeding charge for a speed less than that which was actually observed.

[Rob MacLennan]

Your logic is incorrect. That the driver was at some point going faster does not negate that the same driver was at some point going at a lesser but still illegal speed. In that case, charging for the lesser but known speed is still a proper and accurate charge.

Cops are permitted to lay charges for less than the actual observed offence. They do it all the time.

Just curious: Does that quote come from a Canadian , Australian, or UK case?

[turbodish]

Just curious: Does that quote come from a Canadian , Australian, or UK case?

Ontario Court of Appeal, R v Sibio this year, referred to another Court of Appeal ruling that issued that statement. http://www.canlii.org/en/on/oncj/doc...010oncj315.pdf

[Rob MacLennan]

Ontario Court of Appeal, R v Sibio this year, referred to another Court of Appeal ruling that issued that statement. http://www.canlii.org/en/on/oncj/doc...010oncj315.pdf

Thank you. It isn't that I didn't believe you but rather that it's such an accepted concept, that it's rare to see a case from 1950 referenced anymore.

[turbodish]

Thank you. It isn't that I didn't believe you but rather that it's such an accepted concept, that it's rare to see a case from 1950 referenced anymore.

I chuckled when I read it myself. The 2010 Ontario Court of Appeal ruling relied on a 1975 Ontario Court of Appeal ruling that in turn relied on a 1950 ruling from (I believe) the UK. That's quite the institutional memory.

[82Seca750]

off-duty cops allegedly having a few wobbly-pops and egging on some dude for a street race and then busting him?

to serve and protect

I for one...feel safer....pfft

[nakkers]

I think the cops are just seeing how stupid the OP is after the whole incident. At the very least, it just wastes the OPs time but, if they don't take it to court, the cops win. If the OP spends some time to fight it, it will likely get tossed. But, at the end of the day, the OP will reconsider their actions while driving from here on.

Mission accomplished from a policing stand point.

It sucks for the OP, but it is what it is.

[CruisnGrrl]

so the cops are attempting to race/pace some one while they're in a ford focus. how safe is a car like this at high speeds? we know how police cars are "tuned up" for higher speeds, but the focus? the officers are endangering everyone around them with this behaviour. still a dumb move on the OP's part to a) race a focus, b) stick around to gloat. there's better places to race than on random streets at night.

[derekz]

There is still a chance that the OP misread the other drivers (cops) intention to race. There is a difference between someone trying to race and someone simply driving off from the green light. I'm not accusing the OP here, but I'm just saying that some folks like to prove their dominance in terms of speed. For example, my wife "thinks" everyone is always racing with her from green light, even though most times I don't see any evidence Even back when she was driving the corolla, I saw her trying to keep up with SS bikes

[Grimmy]

Your logic is incorrect. That the driver was at some point going faster does not negate that the same driver was at some point going at a lesser but still illegal speed. In that case, charging for the lesser but known speed is still a proper and accurate charge.

Cops are permitted to lay charges for less than the actual observed offence. They do it all the time.

Yes, they do it all the time, in the case of speeding. However, in this case, the difference between 1 charge and another, is a SINGLE kph over the limit. The fact that a ticket was issued for 49 over, and the scenario of street racing makes it clear to see that the infraction was more likely a 50 over. The police officer does not have discression in a 50 over case - the statute specifically orders the specific vehicle seizure etc.

This case us beyond fishy, and has a great deal to be desired if prosecuted in court.

[Grimmy]

Ontario Court of Appeal, R v Sibio this year, referred to another Court of Appeal ruling that issued that statement. http://www.canlii.org/en/on/oncj/doc...010oncj315.pdf

Thanks for that read. A text book Pacing case (paced at nearly the same speed for some distance)

This case is FAR different, wherein officers racing the defendant in thier personal vehicle, while off duty, estimated visually the speed of the defendant who was accelerating from them, while they travelled at a lesser rate of speed.

[turbodish]

Yes, they do it all the time, in the case of speeding. However, in this case, the difference between 1 charge and another, is a SINGLE kph over the limit. The fact that a ticket was issued for 49 over, and the scenario of street racing makes it clear to see that the infraction was more likely a 50 over. The police officer does not have discression in a 50 over case - the statute specifically orders the specific vehicle seizure etc.

This case us beyond fishy, and has a great deal to be desired if prosecuted in court.

There is nothing whatsoever "fishy" about the charges. There is nothing improper in a cop using discretion to issue a 49-over instead of an HTA172 charge. And if the HTA172 charge is not laid, there is no requirement to impound/suspend. A few on this very same forum have benefitted from that discretion being used.

[turbodish]

Thanks for that read. A text book Pacing case (paced at nearly the same speed for some distance)

This case is FAR different, wherein officers racing the defendant in thier personal vehicle, while off duty, estimated visually the speed of the defendant who was accelerating from them, while they travelled at a lesser rate of speed.

Once again, you ASSUME the cops laid charges based on the estimated speed of the OP, as opposed to speeds actually achieved (and surpassed) by the OP. Nothing in the OP's post supports your claim of speed estimation.

[meme]

methinks you all got trolled

[caboose483]

methinks you all got trolled

Not I.

[Carriers]

I honestly doubt this scenario is true. As I stated, there will be 3 side of this story. I think this story is fabricated a it to the OP favor. Realistically a reasonably off duty police officer would not race an average joe off the street. You stated two police officers wanting to street race you and then decided to identify themselves as police officer? You also added that they call upon a on duty police officer? Highly unlikely. They definitely speed and abuse the system at times, but only for their benefits and not to include the public with something as stupid as this. There is so many things wrong with this story I would call BS.

[SlowNLow]

What you do next time is keep on driving, you were foolish to pull over... It will NEVER hold up in court...

Sent from my GT-I9000M using Tapatalk

[suprPHREAK]

Revving their engine is no reason to actually race. Could be they just wanted to hear your car (since it is such a sporty car and all). Could be they didnt want their POS Ford to stall out. Lots of reasonable, law-abiding reasons to rev a motor. NOWHERE is it written that such an action is calling on a race.

Entrapment is being forced into a situation where you have no other alternative but to break the law. A situation where any reasonable person would NEED to make that choice to get out of it. Street racing is NOT one of those situations. Your REASONABLE action should have been to stay put, or drive according to the law. You chose wrong, you pay for it.

Fight the ticket, and you might get a reduction. But I say count yourself lucky that they didn't actually charge you with racing, and impound your car.

[Carriers]

Excessive noise emitting from a motor vehicle. Thats an HTA charge as well as a by-law charge in most municipality.