Off Duty Police officer, tries to race me then gives me a ticket

[Slick19]

Hey Guys

This is very stupid, but true. I recently purchased a 2010 sports car. One that i been driving very carefully for a long time. However, today morning around 2am, on my way home from a friends party, I was stopped at a red light.

Next to me were 2 young people around my age (25). They looked at me and reved their engine. These people seemed to me as you normal people. They were in a ford focus. When the light turned green, they pulled off very fast....

I got the feeling they wished to have a lil race, So i pulled off and drove by them..... they then sped up some more. Initially I beat them hardcore, but i decided to slow down to comemorate them for at least trying.

Unfortunatly for me, turns out they were both off duty police officers. They quickly flashed thier IDs rolled down their window and screamed and told me to pull over. The funny part was they were speeding themselves, and I felt as tho I was entraped to race. They sped in an unmarked, civilian car.

I pulled over and here is what happend

1) They walked over got my licence
2) they Called another police officer
3) They came back and gave me a 49 over ticket
4) They told me not to take it to court as they would book it for the entire thing of me going well over 50

I dont know what my rights are.......... I feel stupid for racing them, and it does serve me right
but then again, I felt as tho I was put in that situation by police officers who raced me to begin with and once they lost..... took it out on me... Please guys what can I DO, i dont want my insurance to kill me at the time of renewal

[Bandit Bill]

Well, i don't know if entrapment plays a role, since they were technically off-duty.

They did have the right to pull you over, even as off-duty police officers. They are also technically never off-duty.

It does sound like they did bait you into accelerating way beyond the legal limit. However, you had sole control of your vehicle, of the gas pedal, and presumably of your own free will. You would likely have done the same if you knew they weren't cops, vs not knowing they were... and there are plenty of fools out there who like to rev the throttle at the mere sight of a fast car.. it's your responsibility to resist temptation.

It also seems to me that HTA172 was specifically written with this sort of public racing road-crime in mind. Congrats, you may have won the race, but the self-pwnage is truly multi-dimensional, as you are now discovering.

This is a Lawyer-up situation. No advice you are going to get here, is worth the bandwidth of textual data advising you on what to do, in terms of worthy legal advice. You are going to be spending money, one way, or the other.

Good luck..

[Splash]

You street raced, you deserve what you got... Now that's out of the way, why did you stop? They could of been anyone with dollar store badges. Did they have flashing Red/Blue lights in the front?

So they lost and got ****** off at you?

I say call "RedLine" (charged.ca) and let them take care of it. It will be thrown out. The reason they said not to fight it is because they have no evidence of the speed you were going AND I'm sure they don't want on record (in court) that there's a couple of rookie cops out there racing on the streets and enticing others to race also.

[rafiki911]

You defiantly need to go the lawyer route or ex copper route with this one.

[FiReSTaRT]

Redline for sure. They're the only company I'd recommend to anyone in the GTA without reservations.

[twinn]

alright, first, remove this post like asap, like right now, delete it!!!

What are you thinking.

why did you even stop?? two guys in a ford focus, yelling at me to stop, at 2:00am in the morning, for all I know they could be guys trying to car jack my ride, i would have taken off and called *opp.

Lets see, 2 young guys in a ford focus at 2:00am, acting weird, revinng their engine? Whose to say they were not drunk? you were just trying to get away.......

Second, they flashed a badge? so what, do you know what a police badge looks like? have you ever seen one before?

Really, you have lots of options, get a lawyer asap, this one is getting thrown out.

This nonsense about not talking it too court, what a joke, thats your right to do so, trying to intimidate you..... bet if you take it too court they will deny ever saying that.

First off, it will tough for them to prove speed, impossible for them to get a HTA 172-racing ticket etc...

Probely a bunch of rookies- traffic ones at that, trying to score some brownie points with there sgt, thats why they dont want you too take it too court. better if things like this stay of the radar.

[turbodish]

Hey Guys

This is very stupid, but true. I recently purchased a 2010 sports car. One that i been driving very carefully for a long time. However, today morning around 2am, on my way home from a friends party, I was stopped at a red light.

Next to me were 2 young people around my age (25). They looked at me and reved their engine. These people seemed to me as you normal people. They were in a ford focus. When the light turned green, they pulled off very fast....

I got the feeling they wished to have a lil race, So i pulled off and drove by them..... they then sped up some more. Initially I beat them hardcore, but i decided to slow down to comemorate them for at least trying.

Unfortunatly for me, turns out they were both off duty police officers. They quickly flashed thier IDs rolled down their window and screamed and told me to pull over. The funny part was they were speeding themselves, and I felt as tho I was entraped to race. They sped in an unmarked, civilian car.

I pulled over and here is what happend

1) They walked over got my licence
2) they Called another police officer
3) They came back and gave me a 49 over ticket
4) They told me not to take it to court as they would book it for the entire thing of me going well over 50

I dont know what my rights are.......... I feel stupid for racing them, and it does serve me right
but then again, I felt as tho I was put in that situation by police officers who raced me to begin with and once they lost..... took it out on me... Please guys what can I DO, i dont want my insurance to kill me at the time of renewal

Were they below the speed limit when you raced past them? If they were in a Focus and you in a sports car, they probably were unless you gave them half the length of a football field for a head start. They can then argue that they then raised their speed over the speed limit in an effort to keep you in sight, which is perfectly acceptable given that police are permitted to exceed the speed limit as necessary in the performance of their duties. Cops in Ontario retain their policing powers even when "off duty", so them speeding to go after you would be acceptable if traffic was light, and would not be considered racing or speeding on their part.

Don't be so sure about other posters advice that they have nothing on you as far as speed goes. While their speedometer would not be a police-certified speedometer, a JP could easily consider it accurate enough to support a speed of "at least 49 kmph over" if they were to testify that they were doing an indicated 50 or 60 kmph over in pursuit of you and that you were still pulling away from them at a great rate of speed.

So, pony up for a lawyer. "Winning" this "race" is going to cost you.

[twinn]

Were they below the speed limit when you raced past them? If they were in a Focus and you in a sports car, they probably were unless you gave them half the length of a football field for a head start. They can then argue that they then raised their speed over the speed limit in an effort to keep you in sight, which is perfectly acceptable given that police are permitted to exceed the speed limit as necessary in the performance of their duties. Cops in Ontario retain their policing powers even when "off duty", so them speeding to go after you would be acceptable if traffic was light, and would not be considered racing or speeding on their part.

Don't be so sure about other posters advice that they have nothing on you as far as speed goes. While their speedometer would not be a police-certified speedometer, a JP could easily consider it accurate enough to support a speed of "at least 49 kmph over" if they were to testify that they were doing an indicated 50 or 60 kmph over in pursuit of you and that you were still pulling away from them at a great rate of speed.

So, pony up for a lawyer. "Winning" this "race" is going to cost you.

Seriously dude, take off your "blue tint" sunglasses just for a minute.

Lets look at the facts based on what a "reasonable" person would do.

Its 2:00am, two young guys pull up beside you in a focus (you drive a sports car) and start reving their engine. Its is obvious to "reasonable" person that the people in the focus very well might be under the influence of something as a ford focus is not going to beat any type of sport car, ever.

A resonable person would:

Accelerate or slow down and if being paced by the focus acclerate and when safe to do so, contact police--
Would not engage in a converstation with two angry and yelling young men at roadside. Would not even make eye contact or roll down there window
I would go as far as to say that if that was me in the sports car stopped at a red light and two guys starting yelling at me, at 2:00am in the morning, I would run that red light if it was safe and clear to do so, to protect my own saftey and contact police as soon as it was safe to do so.

As far as them flashing their badge, most citizens do not know what a police badge looks like - as is evident by all the police imposters that we here about in the news.

Futhermore, It is not standard operationf procedure for police in Ontario to engage in this type of activity, while in plain clothes, driving a regular car (no lights,markings etc, no computer etc...)

and.... it is in fact unethical and against police protocol for them to "intimidate" a person by threatining the person getting the citiation against going to court.

Umm, do you remeber the case against former attorny general? the one were he ran down and killed a "angry" cyclist that was "yelling" at him, the crown decided that a reasonable person would flee from a threat like that. Whats the difference if these two guys jump out of there car, yelling, flashing something? reaching into their pocket and pull something "shiny" out. In that moment, the last thing on a citizens mind is that these guys are cops. What if the citizen reacts the same way former attorney general did and takes off, and ends up hitting or injurying one of these guys? These guys are really dumb for being cops.

First, they should not have pulled you over roadside, they should have contacted a police officer in the area, paced you and pulled over after the marked police cruiser pulled you over. Thats policy and Turbo know its. There was no imminent threat from the OP, he in fact slowed down well before he was even aware it was to cops behind him.

These two cops are way out of line, and they know it, hence the threats not too take it too court.

OP, take it to court, get a lawyer, this one is getting tossed and the police officers involved are all going to get a "stern" talking too.

Just wanted to ad, just for discussions sake, the OP does not mention if he is a male or female, if the OP is a female, thw whole dynmaic changes and that is something to consider as well.

[turbodish]

Seriously dude, take off your "blue tint" sunglasses just for a minute.

Lets look at the facts based on what a "reasonable" person would do.

Its 2:00am, two young guys pull up beside you in a focus (you drive a sports car) and start reving their engine. Its is obvious to "reasonable" person that the people in the focus very well might be under the influence of something as a ford focus is not going to beat any type of sport car, ever.

A resonable person would:

Accelerate or slow down and if being paced by the focus acclerate and when safe to do so, contact police--

Ok, they're supposedly revving the engine in the Focus while stopped at the lights beside the OP. A reasonable person as you claim would accelerate or slow down, but they're both stopped at the lights and not moving so neither of that applies, does it?

Then according to the OP, the lights change and the Focus "races" away. What would a reasonable person do according to you? Accelerate to catch up to them and pass them? Wouldn't it be more reasonable for the OP to maybe wait for a bit and let them get far ahead and then proceed slowly, maybe even turning off and going in a different direction?

In any case, the OP own actions showed that he felt no threat whatsoever from the two in the Focus. He accelerated to catch up to them and then pass them. Then, after "winning" his race he even slowed down to let them catch up so he could, in his own words, "comemorate them for at least trying". Hardly the actions of someone in fear of the two in the Focus.

Would not engage in a converstation with two angry and yelling young men at roadside. Would not even make eye contact or roll down there window
I would go as far as to say that if that was me in the sports car stopped at a red light and two guys starting yelling at me, at 2:00am in the morning, I would run that red light if it was safe and clear to do so, to protect my own saftey and contact police as soon as it was safe to do so.

But they were not yelling while stopped at the traffic light. You're making up scenarios that have no basis in presented fact.

As far as them flashing their badge, most citizens do not know what a police badge looks like - as is evident by all the police imposters that we here about in the news.

Futhermore, It is not standard operationf procedure for police in Ontario to engage in this type of activity, while in plain clothes, driving a regular car (no lights,markings etc, no computer etc...)

Irrelevant at this point seeing as the OP chose to stop.

It may not be a standard operating procedure for normal traffic patrol, but it is also not a prohibited one. Plain clothes and old clothes undercover cops by definition work out of uniform and will make stops for various reasons. There are several posts in this forum about seeing police in plain civilian-type vehicles of all types pulling over people on the highway. Old clothes cops in particular will not use standard pattern marked or unmarked police cruisers, preferring cars that will help them fit into the environment, and that definitely precludes the presence of a large obviously-visible computer mounted between the front seats.

The only difference here is that the two cops were supposedly off-duty, according to the OP. Were they? Or were they really on-duty but on old clothes detail? Either way, it makes no difference given that their policing powers don't end even if their shift does.

and.... it is in fact unethical and against police protocol for them to "intimidate" a person by threatining the person getting the citiation against going to court.

Is it unethical? Can you point out the published protocol that says so?

People here often post about cops give them a reduced ticket together with the admonishment that the roadside discounted ticket "gift" can be rescinded if they choose to go to trial. The Ontario Court of Appeal has validated the practice of rescinding such gifts if a person chooses trial. The cop giving such notice is not being unethical - he's just giving fair warning.

Umm, do you remeber the case against former attorny general? the one were he ran down and killed a "angry" cyclist that was "yelling" at him, the crown decided that a reasonable person would flee from a threat like that. Whats the difference if these two guys jump out of there car, yelling, flashing something? reaching into their pocket and pull something "shiny" out. In that moment, the last thing on a citizens mind is that these guys are cops. What if the citizen reacts the same way former attorney general did and takes off, and ends up hitting or injurying one of these guys? These guys are really dumb for being cops.

Not relevant in this case. The OP stopped, so there is no issue of having to give defence to a failure to stop or flight from police situation that did not even happen.

First, they should not have pulled you over roadside, they should have contacted a police officer in the area, paced you and pulled over after the marked police cruiser pulled you over. Thats policy and Turbo know its. There was no imminent threat from the OP, he in fact slowed down well before he was even aware it was to cops behind him.

Maybe they did call for a police car. Cell phones can be a wonderful thing. Then maybe they also saw an opportunity to end the thing early and decided to initiate a stop because they thought they were in a position to do so safely.

As for supposed "policy", please point out the published policy for the force in question. There are usually general policies discouraging but not outright prohibiting pursuit through traffic by unmarked cars, but there is no mention of any traffic being present in the OP's story. Also, even violations of such policies (if they even apply in this case) would not void any charges resulting from such a situation.

These two cops are way out of line, and they know it, hence the threats not too take it too court.

OP, take it to court, get a lawyer, this one is getting tossed and the police officers involved are all going to get a "stern" talking too.

I wouldn't be too sure about that, especially given that you don't know the cops' side of the story.

Just wanted to ad, just for discussions sake, the OP does not mention if he is a male or female, if the OP is a female, thw whole dynmaic changes and that is something to consider as well.

Exactly what dynamic changes? As already mentioned, the OP stopped, so excuses for why he (or she) would choose to not stop are meaningless at this point.

[twinn]

Ok, they're supposedly revving the engine in the Focus while stopped at the lights beside the OP. A reasonable person as you claim would accelerate or slow down, but they're both stopped at the lights and not moving so neither of that applies, does it?

Then according to the OP, the lights change and the Focus "races" away. What would a reasonable person do according to you? Accelerate to catch up to them and pass them? Wouldn't it be more reasonable for the OP to maybe wait for a bit and let them get far ahead and then proceed slowly, maybe even turning off and going in a different direction?

In any case, the OP own actions showed that he felt no threat whatsoever from the two in the Focus. He accelerated to catch up to them and then pass them. Then, after "winning" his race he even slowed down to let them catch up so he could, in his own words, "comemorate them for at least trying". Hardly the actions of someone in fear of the two in the Focus..

Lets pull out a favorite blue line quote "its all in the perception of the (police officer-Victim) or how about another fav-- we werent there so who knows what happened?

But they were not yelling while stopped at the traffic light. You're making up scenarios that have no basis in presented fact..

Unfortunatly for me, turns out they were both off duty police officers. They quickly flashed thier IDs rolled down their window and screamed and told me to pull over

Irrelevant at this point seeing as the OP chose to stop. ]

Really, the JP will decide that not me or you or the cops in question.



So, the off duty cops give give him a ticket based on 49km over the limit based on what again? Are there defined time and space markers? radar-nope, how did they come up with this over 49 number?

Its not common practice for undercover plain clothes officers to pull over and do traffic stops.

The cops can spin this how ever they want, my question is, to others on this forum who are better informed about the law. Is is possible for the over 49kmh ticket to be changed to a 50 over ticket at trial? Because that is a criminal charge and as far as I know (may very well be mistaken) it cannot happen. If it cannot be changed, then wouldnt it be unethical for the cops to threaten this course of action? If it can be changed, is there even one example of case law stating that this have ever happened?

As for the cops possible getting injuried, you may thing that its irrelevant, bet you that if this type of traffic stop happens on a nightly basis, there sgt will not think its irrelevant. neither will the police union if ever a cop is hurt or injuried by this stupdity.

[turbodish]

Really, the JP will decide that not me or you or the cops in question.

The OP mentioned nothing about anyone yelling at him while he and the Focus were waiting at the traffic light. The yelling happened after the race, after he had passed them and then let them catch up so he could "comemorate them for at least trying". Go ahead and re-read the OP's first post. The course of events he described are completely at odds with your claimed scenario and what a reasonable person would do if yelled at while stopped at the traffic lights.

So, the off duty cops give give him a ticket based on 49km over the limit based on what again? Are there defined time and space markers? radar-nope, how did they come up with this over 49 number?

I take it you've never heard of the magical science called "pacing"? Very common in Ontario, and hard to beat in court where extreme speeding is concerned.

Its not common practice for undercover plain clothes officers to pull over and do traffic stops.

No, it's not "common", but it's also not prohibited or against policy.

The cops can spin this how ever they want, my question is, to others on this forum who are better informed about the law. Is is possible for the over 49kmh ticket to be changed to a 50 over ticket at trial? Because that is a criminal charge and as far as I know (may very well be mistaken) it cannot happen. If it cannot be changed, then wouldnt it be unethical for the cops to threaten this course of action? If it can be changed, is there even one example of case law stating that this have ever happened?

You clearly are not well informed about the law. A 50-over speeding charge is not a criminal charge. It is a speeding charge. Even a stunting charge is not a criminal charge. It's all Highway Traffic Act.

Here's how it gets changed. The cop's notes will contain the actual speed they measured the OP's car at. That speed will probably be well above the 49-over that appears on the ticket. The Crown will have the cop's notes prior to trial, and at trial will move to amend the speeding charge to reflect the actual speed that the cops saw.

The Crown and JP will already be aware of the precedent ruling from the Ontario Court of Appeal permitting such tickets to be amended up. Refer to http://www.canlii.org/en/on/onca/doc...009onca643.pdf for the case law you think doesn't exist. In some locales, amending up is almost an automatic response to a driver challenging a reduced speeding ticket.

The cop chose a 49-over ticket in order to give a bit of a break. If the cop was really in it to screw over the OP, a 50-over would have meant an automatic tow, suspension, and mandatory court date in front of judge where he could get an additional period of license suspension plus $2,000 fine. As it is now, he just gets a much lower speeding fine that he can pay out of court if so inclined, and no risk of license suspension.

As for the cops possible getting injuried, you may thing that its irrelevant, bet you that if this type of traffic stop happens on a nightly basis, there sgt will not think its irrelevant. neither will the police union if ever a cop is hurt or injuried by this stupdity.

Where have you been? Cops get hurt all the time in the course of their duties, including during traffic stops.

[dankyyz]

well, i don't know if entrapment plays a role, since they were technically off-duty.

They did have the right to pull you over, even as off-duty police officers. They are also technically never off-duty.

It does sound like they did bait you into accelerating way beyond the legal limit. However, you had sole control of your vehicle, of the gas pedal, and presumably of your own free will. You would likely have done the same if you knew they weren't cops, vs not knowing they were... And there are plenty of fools out there who like to rev the throttle at the mere sight of a fast car.. It's your responsibility to resist temptation.

It also seems to me that hta172 was specifically written with this sort of public racing road-crime in mind. Congrats, you may have won the race, but the self-pwnage is truly multi-dimensional, as you are now discovering.

This is a lawyer-up situation. No advice you are going to get here, is worth the bandwidth of textual data advising you on what to do, in terms of worthy legal advice. You are going to be spending money, one way, or the other.

Good luck..

^^^ this.

[dankyyz]

alright, first, remove this post like asap, like right now, delete it!!!

What are you thinking.

why did you even stop?? two guys in a ford focus, yelling at me to stop, at 2:00am in the morning, for all I know they could be guys trying to car jack my ride, i would have taken off and called *opp.

Lets see, 2 young guys in a ford focus at 2:00am, acting weird, revinng their engine? Whose to say they were not drunk? you were just trying to get away.......

Second, they flashed a badge? so what, do you know what a police badge looks like? have you ever seen one before?

Really, you have lots of options, get a lawyer asap, this one is getting thrown out.

This nonsense about not talking it too court, what a joke, thats your right to do so, trying to intimidate you..... bet if you take it too court they will deny ever saying that.

First off, it will tough for them to prove speed, impossible for them to get a HTA 172-racing ticket etc...

Probely a bunch of rookies- traffic ones at that, trying to score some brownie points with there sgt, thats why they dont want you too take it too court. better if things like this stay of the radar.

The above....^^^ Is totally unqualified BS. Call a lawyer man. This kind of advice is the free kind. And worth ........???? Call a laywer.

Not posting anymore on this thread is also a good idea. You are already in posession of all the advice you need to get gong. Again...avoid the above quote as part of that. LOL. Ever.

[twinn]

The above....^^^ Is totally unqualified BS. Call a lawyer man. This kind of advice is the free kind. And worth ........???? Call a laywer.

Not posting anymore on this thread is also a good idea. You are already in posession of all the advice you need to get gong. Again...avoid the above quote as part of that. LOL. Ever.

Dankyz and Turbo in the same thread--- yeaaaa the circus is in town.

I told the dude to lawyer up,

Ill even bring popcorn to the trial-- all 3 cops have to show up and file disclosure. Who wants to bet that the two off duty guys dont show up to court. or dont file disclosure....

To the OP, lawyer up and dont stress about this.

[lucky2]

why did the dude sign up to make one post about speeding, does anyone else think this might be suspicious.

[imnothng]

Turbo, you talk about pacing being a practiced measure of speed. Do police cars have to be calibrated properly to be allowed to "pace" another car? And if so, I sure as hell don't think an off duty police officers car would be.

And why are people talking about a ford focus as if it can't be a sports car? Sure, most aren't geared to be sport cars here in north America, but it could be one from Europe, which are turbo'd. So imo, unless the op is in a lambo or Porsche, I would possibly consider a focus could be a "sports" car in this situation.

[Grimmy]

I don't know of the OP is a troll or not... but I'll give an answer presuming not.

This is an easy ticket to beat.

How'd the "officers" measure your speed? Simply guessed based on relative vehicle speeds, in their personal vehicle using the spedometer as a guage?

If you passed them, and they being law abiding police officers, driving their personal vehicle, and as such at the speed limit themselves, they'd have to guess as to what speed you passed them at. Going 60 KPH, if someone passes you at 85kph, it is deceiving, and could look like 90 or even 100 kph.

This should be childs play for a paralegal. I'd hire Redline, and watch the ticket dissapear.

The fact they gave at 49 over ticket, and not the full on impoundment etc (as often quoted as REQUIRED, whenever an officer witnesses excessive speeding, or outright racing) shows that there is weakness, and at the roadside they knew it.

To address Turbo - He'll pony up, and win. There is no race, the court system is so slow it really isnt funny.

Someone mentioned pacing - oh yeah, turbo again. Pacing is the LEAST practical and LEAST reliable of measuring speed. Further, pacing is only valid where the pursuing officer maintains speed at the same rate of the other vehicle, over some distance. Pacing is not estimating visually a vehicles speed or accelleration. These tickets often get thrown out before trial - I know, I've been the subject of a "pacing" aka b.s. ticket.

[Metastable]

Of course this is just an assumption, but I'd wager if you took it to court they wouldn't show up. They don't want their actions smeared..... and that's what would happen with a good paralegal. I'd also suggest Redline.

[Cha0s00100]

why did the dude sign up to make one post about speeding, does anyone else think this might be suspicious.

Op is legit not a troll. I work with him. He forgot to mention that the two off duty officers reeked of alcohol. . . personally I would have requested the two off duty officers be tested and have their statements void when the on duty officer showed up and they tested over the limit.
Option two; kept going and if a cop showed up at your house tell them he got in a scuffle at a bar and felt those two were the culprits and you felt threatened.
All in all he was in the moment and made a bad call, I think this will blow over after he gets redline involved.

[nobbie48]

Op is legit not a troll. I work with him. He forgot to mention that the two off duty officers reeked of alcohol. . . personally I would have requested the two off duty officers be tested and have their statements void when the on duty officer showed up and they tested over the limit.
Option two; kept going and if a cop showed up at your house tell them he got in a scuffle at a bar and felt those two were the culprits and you felt threatened.
All in all he was in the moment and made a bad call, I think this will blow over after he gets redline involved.

Thanks for the clarification. I was thinking about the one post wonder myself. There are a number of factors added now but the bottom line is that your friend entered into a speed contest not thinking about the consequences. You don't have to be 50 over to get hit by 172. I was surpised at the number of situations it covers.

If what your friend says is true he has a lot of ammunition for the court but unless he is experienced in courtroom tactics a lawyer or paralegal would be a smart move.

Why would anyone stoop to race a Focus?