Cops at where 427 ends

[Rossi86]

And the world you live in has no transport trucks.

I'm sure it must have happened at some point, but is there really an epidemic of 4-wheelers running over motorcycles as they slow down?

He meant transport trucks on the right lane blocking the view of the speed limit drop signs for the vehicles on the left lanes...

Hopefully, once enough people are charged with HTA172 and can't afford insurance anymore the average idiot will understand what this law was really intended for and start protesting at Queens Park to get rid of it...

Somehow, once you go the magic number 50 over the limit on your speedometer the world's about to end. Lets not forget, Benito's identical twin right after the law came into effect said he regretted the 50 over and he should've pushed the provincial government for 30 over to be considered racing.

Anyone know how many times you need to be charged with HTA172 to become a professional racer?

[50 over]

This is by no way meant to start any flaming or name calling but after looking through this thread and others, I have to ask. Turbodish have you ever recieved any speeding tickets? or do you just keep your badge in your wallet when off duty and your buds just let you roll on when you get clicked at 20 over? See one of our riding buds works for the prison service and he gets similar treatment, so we always stick him up front and he flashes his little plastic badge and he gets the same treatment, the cops usually chuckle at it first but then they let him roll along with a warning
Do you think that all cops are honest and upright and never abuse there position? coz it sure seems like it in your responses.

[vrus]

And going 110 - 120 will get you killed when you run into traffic stopped for the the T-intersection traffic lights at the top end of the 427. Eventually you will need to slow down and probably stop anyways. The two-stage drop in speed limits along with police speed enforcement is the safest way to manage traffic speeds to that end.

There is no need to put a 60 limit at the end of that highway though. Consider looking at the opposite end where 427 -> 27. Speed limit is 80 and vehicles do fine for breaking.

[ddusseld]

As per normal you miss the point. In your fervent desire to justify a poor law you yet again provide information that seems reasonable on the face of it. Sure there is signage. Sure you should see the signage. But that really is not the point. There always is signage. The point is that the police use these areas for speed traps. Not because they are dangerous areas rife with street racers but because they can get maximum penalties by fishing these holes. I completely agree that people caught here should be charged with speeding but they are not stunting or racing. Odds are they missed a sign or two. But, these people, these "street racers", are charged with 172. Was this the intent of the law? Was this the spirit of the law? I don't think so....

I do have a question. Where do you find the time to dig up google map images of all of these areas? You get an A+ for effort....

On the 410 northbound? You mean if you missed the MULTIPLE signs warning of speed drops ahead.

The 80 kmph Ahead warning sign http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&sourc...12,328.66,,0,5

Then the BIG oversized 80 kmph Begins sign http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&sourc...12,328.66,,0,5

Then a second BIG oversized 80 kmph sign http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&sourc...12,328.66,,0,5

Which is immediately followed by a BIG yellow sign warning that the highway ends in 1 km. http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&sourc...12,328.66,,0,5

Then a BIG oversized 60 kmph Ahead warning sign http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&sourc...12,328.66,,0,5

And a BIG yellow "Reduce Speed Prepare to Stop" warning sign http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&sourc...12,333.03,,0,5

Which is followed by a BIG oversized 60 kmph Begins signs http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&sourc...12,333.03,,0,5

And then another BIG oversized 60 kmph sign http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&sourc...=12,324.9,,0,5

This supposed sneaky transition zone gets trotted out all the time, but the reality is that if people are still doing 110+ kmph by the time they hit the 60 speed limit signs, it's because they're either blind or oblivious in which case they shouldn't be permitted to drive, or it's because they deliberately chose to disregard the multiple warning and speed limit signs in which case they sorely deserve everything that's coming their way in the way of fines/tows/suspensions.

The same applies to the northern end of the 427 where multiple signs warn of speed limit drops and the end of the highway coming up.

[954RR]

And then this 60 sign too:

http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&sourc...,0.021608&z=16

Where is the sign you are refering to??

[turbodish]

He meant transport trucks on the right lane blocking the view of the speed limit drop signs for the vehicles on the left lanes...

Even with heavy truck traffic that's an awful lot of signs to miss on the 410 when it ended at Mayfield.

On the 427, warning is given by a big yellow sign on an overhead gantry AND by speed limit warning signs posted on both sides of the road. Even with wall to wall trucks you can't miss them.

Hopefully, once enough people are charged with HTA172 and can't afford insurance anymore the average idiot will understand what this law was really intended for and start protesting at Queens Park to get rid of it...

Not going to happen. The average driver out there LIKES seeing the average idiot get towed away for excessive speeding.

Somehow, once you go the magic number 50 over the limit on your speedometer the world's about to end.

The line needs to be drawn somewhere and 50 over is a plenty-enough wide margin over the limit. The average driver out there is not getting nailed with HTA172.

[Lightcycle]

Where is the sign you are refering to??

I caught doing 69 in that area.

[El Zilcho]

Not going to happen. The average driver out there LIKES seeing the average idiot get towed away for excessive speeding.

[...]

The line needs to be drawn somewhere and 50 over is a plenty-enough wide margin over the limit. The average driver out there is not getting nailed with HTA172.

What exactly is that "average driver" you keep talking about?
Does the "average driver" realize the lack of a due process included in HTA172?
Is the "average driver" ok with the police fishing for tickets at places that don't pose safety hazard?

[50 over]

The line needs to be drawn somewhere and 50 over is a plenty-enough wide margin over the limit. The average driver out there is not getting nailed with HTA172.

Yes you are correct in [This] instance. The line has indeed been drawn and based on this forum alone, HTA 172 does not sit well with the average driver. Average drivers are getting nailed daily with 172.
Do we need a poll ?

[turbodish]

What exactly is that "average driver" you keep talking about?
Does the "average driver" realize the lack of a due process included in HTA172?

Due process does not mean that every offence is treated exactly the same as another. A process is a defined set of procedures, and process can be modified according to deemed severity of offence. You see it throughout our legal system where minor offences may be dealt with using different processes than more severe ones.

"Due" process is precisely what it means - depending on the type of offence, you will be subject to "due" process applicable to that offence. The "due" process for being caught at 50-over is different than that being caught for 10 over.

Is the "average driver" ok with the police fishing for tickets at places that don't pose safety hazard?

Speed differential between vehicles is conducive to increased crash rates regardless of location. This effect is exacerbated when it comes to people slowing to stop at or negotiate T-intersections.

The average driver does not travel at 50-over the limit. The average driver is quite ok with the cops policing people who drive well over the speed limit regardless of location.

[turbodish]

Yes you are correct in [This] instance. The line has indeed been drawn and based on this forum alone, HTA 172 does not sit well with the average driver. Average drivers are getting nailed daily with 172.
Do we need a poll ?

How many drivers have been hit with HTA172 since its implementation? 20,000 maybe?

There are between 9 and 9-1/2 MILLION licensed drivers in Ontario. Do the math.

[50 over]

I hate math, u do it.

[turbodish]

As per normal you miss the point. In your fervent desire to justify a poor law you yet again provide information that seems reasonable on the face of it. Sure there is signage. Sure you should see the signage. But that really is not the point. There always is signage. The point is that the police use these areas for speed traps. Not because they are dangerous areas rife with street racers but because they can get maximum penalties by fishing these holes. I completely agree that people caught here should be charged with speeding but they are not stunting or racing. Odds are they missed a sign or two. But, these people, these "street racers", are charged with 172. Was this the intent of the law? Was this the spirit of the law? I don't think so....

The cops will tend to focus efforts on locations where there are bound to be violations. Are you suggesting that they should go enforce the law only in places where there are not bound to be violations?

These people you speak of getting caught for 50+ in places where the speed limit drops are still doing 50+ over. Should the cops ignore them? How long a "distance of grace" should the cops give them following a change in speed limit should the cops given them? 1/2 km? 1 km? Or in the case of the speeding Minis the other week, 25 km?

To me it's pretty simple. The speed limit shown on the sign is the speed limit in effect at that point. Not speed limit plus x kmph. Not starting at that point plus y km. What is says on the sign as of that point on the highway, If you miss it or as is often the case just simply choose to disregard it, you're fair game for enforcement. We're all supposedly adults. Everyone knows the rules. Maybe some should just quit moaning about the rules of driving.

[50 over]

How many drivers have been hit with HTA172 since its implementation? 20,000 maybe?

There are between 9 and 9-1/2 MILLION licensed drivers in Ontario. Do the math.

so lets see the law stupid law came in Sept 30 2007 I believe, u say there are 20,000 convictions apprx to date, sooooooo hold on, let me get a calculator........................................ ...
Sept 30,2007 to May17 2010, 365 days a year, uuummmm thats about 930 odd days,
so 20,000 divided by 930 equals, 21.5, wowsa I stand corrected sir, its 21 poor soles are having there cars nabbed everyday and the coffers of the rich and slimey are increasing exponentially.
Yep average drivers are getting nailed.

[bitzz]

Something I have noticed:
I have been driving a long time. I used to drive professionally, not any more.

I used to be one of the fastest on the road, not any more. I haven't slowed down, but now the majority of vehicles pass me.

Yesterday I drove from the Woodlands in Mississauga to my home, about 4 miles. During that trip I saw 5 motorcycles.
2 doing at least 130kph just east of Mavis on Dundas, a 60KPH zone.
2 hanging wheelies down Dundas just east of Hurontario, one of the busiest intersections in Mississauga and a 50KPH zone.
1 guy on a Harley putting along.

I know you guys never break the law BUT your motorcycle riding compadres have established an optic. It is NOT a good optic.
It is all about optics.
Bills 172 and 203 are reactions to that optic. Deal with it.

As to your "Radar Trap" at the end of the 427: Should the police just ignore the speeders at this location? They can't. That would be THEM breaking the law.

Back in the good ol' days we used to street race. Back in the good ol' days the nice police would show up at our street races and close the road off by putting a cruiser at both ends of the road with the lights on. (One of the roads we used was 5th line north of Dundas. The road behind what is now 12div of Peel Regional Police).
... and yes, I have seen cruisers in street drag races. (Some of those interceptors were fast.) (Not as fast as the Richmond BC. RCMP's Dodge [ looked like a Volare but was a Dodge] with a 400 small block with 2 thermoquads. That thing was cool... and blew my small block Chev into the weeds).
Back in the good ol' days we used to close off the roads around Atomic Research in Mississauga on Sunday mornings for our regular illegal road races.
Mississauga police were regular spectators.
Somebody must have put an eye out, cuz' all the fun and games ended at the end of the '70s.

[El Zilcho]

Due process does not mean that every offence is treated exactly the same as another.

For me due process means that the penalty cannot be frivolously administered before the conviction.

[El Zilcho]

As to your "Radar Trap" at the end of the 427: Should the police just ignore the speeders at this location? They can't. That would be THEM breaking the law.

The police is not legally obligated to prosecute speeders.

[50 over]

Something I have noticed:
I have been driving a long time. I used to drive professionally, not any more.

I used to be one of the fastest on the road, not any more. I haven't slowed down, but now the majority of vehicles pass me.

Yesterday I drove from the Woodlands in Mississauga to my home, about 4 miles. During that trip I saw 5 motorcycles.
2 doing at least 130kph just east of Mavis on Dundas, a 60KPH zone.
2 hanging wheelies down Dundas just east of Hurontario, one of the busiest intersections in Mississauga and a 50KPH zone.
1 guy on a Harley putting along.

I know you guys never break the law BUT your motorcycle riding compadres have established an optic. It is NOT a good optic.
It is all about optics.
Bills 172 and 203 are reactions to that optic. Deal with it.

As to your "Radar Trap" at the end of the 427: Should the police just ignore the speeders at this location? They can't. That would be THEM breaking the law.

Back in the good ol' days we used to street race. Back in the good ol' days the nice police would show up at our street races and close the road off by putting a cruiser at both ends of the road with the lights on. (One of the roads we used was 5th line north of Dundas. The road behind what is now 12div of Peel Regional Police).
... and yes, I have seen cruisers in street drag races. (Some of those interceptors were fast.) (Not as fast as the Richmond BC. RCMP's Dodge [ looked like a Volare but was a Dodge] with a 400 small block with 2 thermoquads. That thing was cool... and blew my small block Chev into the weeds).
Back in the good ol' days we used to close off the roads around Atomic Research in Mississauga on Sunday mornings for our regular illegal road races.
Mississauga police were regular spectators.
Somebody must have put an eye out, cuz' all the fun and games ended at the end of the '70s.

Great post, Bi gone days I'm afraid, when cops had a personality along with free thinking, the morons of today are just power hungry bottom feeders. Also, hahah to the Harley Puttin along { probably on one cylinder}.
You want speed go to Canadas Wonderland or buy a race track.

[Rob MacLennan]

The cops will tend to focus efforts on locations where there are bound to be violations. Are you suggesting that they should go enforce the law only in places where there are not bound to be violations?

These people you speak of getting caught for 50+ in places where the speed limit drops are still doing 50+ over. Should the cops ignore them? How long a "distance of grace" should the cops give them following a change in speed limit should the cops given them? 1/2 km? 1 km? Or in the case of the speeding Minis the other week, 25 km?

To me it's pretty simple. The speed limit shown on the sign is the speed limit in effect at that point. Not speed limit plus x kmph. Not starting at that point plus y km. What is says on the sign as of that point on the highway, If you miss it or as is often the case just simply choose to disregard it, you're fair game for enforcement. We're all supposedly adults. Everyone knows the rules. Maybe some should just quit moaning about the rules of driving.

I think that it was fairly obvious to all and sundry that ddusseld was suggesting it would make far more sense to enforce where there was an obvious danger to public safety, rather than simply a target rich environment.

[Kibosh3]

...Somebody must have put an eye out, cuz' all the fun and games ended at the end of the '70s.

sounds like a better time... but we still have the track, i suppose

my father also recounts the days of living out in brantford in the 70's and building/racing old chevelles and such...

life just got more complicated overtime