Scammed on a bike sale does that count as theft?

[Skurj]

Heh no it hasn't happened!


But what if... buyer goes with you to the bank hands over a cheque the bank makes sure its good, and then a week later you find out there is a problem with the cheque and the guy and the bike are halfway to russia?

Could my insurance cover such a thing?

[qaz393]

Heh no it hasn't happened!


But what if... buyer goes with you to the bank hands over a cheque the bank makes sure its good, and then a week later you find out there is a problem with the cheque and the guy and the bike are halfway to russia?

Could my insurance cover such a thing?

that would be fraud cause u did give the motorcycle to that person

[Hellbound]

I don't know about the description, but if you WENT TO THE BANK and they ISSUED A CERTIFIED CHEQUE, then it should not be your problem.

However, if you accepted a "certified" cheque as face value from the buyer and then you cash it and it's a fake, then I am not sure how that would be covered.

[short stop]

If it's a certified cheque or a money order there shouldn't be any problems. I'd never accept a normal cheque that could possibly bounce.

[Skurj]

Just paranoid, don't wanna get scammed..

[arekzjawin]

One word - cash

[bobjohnson]

If it's a certified cheque or a money order there shouldn't be any problems. I'd never accept a normal cheque that could possibly bounce.

People have taken to forging those lately. Its not incredibly hard, if you look at one there isnt that much security involved in them. With the quality of printers and scanners these days, it would not take all that much effort.

[Sushii]

People have taken to forging those lately. Its not incredibly hard, if you look at one there isnt that much security involved in them. With the quality of printers and scanners these days, it would not take all that much effort.

That's why you go to the bank with them

[Skurj]

Yep I have told the potential buyer that we will go to the bank and the transaction will basically take place there. Course that also will cover the lien removal at the same time. Even cash isn't safe these days.

[Zed-X-Rex]

Go to their bank with them and watch the teller make the cheque. If someones willing to buy the bike from you before the lein is lifted, then theyre inexperienced or overly trusting. The lein takes days to weeks to be lifted.

[Avi Singh]

From an insurance perspective, comprehensive coverage does not cover you if you volunatarily part with the title of the bike.

[Skurj]

Go to their bank with them and watch the teller make the cheque. If someones willing to buy the bike from you before the lein is lifted, then theyre inexperienced or overly trusting. The lein takes days to weeks to be lifted.

If I had the money to pay off the loan I would remove the lien.. He understands there will be one, and he will come to my bank with whatever method of payment, and my bank who holds the lien will be able to let him know there and then about the lien removal process.

[nobbie48]

Heh no it hasn't happened!


But what if... buyer goes with you to the bank hands over a cheque the bank makes sure its good, and then a week later you find out there is a problem with the cheque and the guy and the bike are halfway to russia?

Could my insurance cover such a thing?

As someone posted that would be fraud not theft SOL

There is a way that could go wrong if it's at your bank. Read the fine print on your account application. Somewhere it is written "The bank never loses".

If you go to his bank get him to get the cash give it to you. Then you buy a money order. No counterfeit $$, no bounced checks and no link between the two transactions.

[RickT]

If it's a certified cheque or a money order there shouldn't be any problems. I'd never accept a normal cheque that could possibly bounce.

As mentioned, lots of fraud with certified cheques and money orders lately (at least things that look like certified cheques and money orders).

I doubt your insurance company would cover you for something like that.

[Platinum Cycle]

From an insurance perspective, comprehensive coverage does not cover you if you volunatarily part with the title of the bike.

A common misconception. I've handled a claim for the EXACT same thing. I got a legal opinion to determine how the policy should respond.

You are covered under your comprehensive coverage. I appreciate what Avi states but that will not apply here in your scenario.

I could steal your bike by putting a gun to your head, or I can do it in a more clever way by using forged and fake documents. In either case my intent was to steal your bike. You're still the victim of a theft and that is covered by comprehensive.

Additionally, if you look up the definition of theft in the Blacks law dictionary it includes things like fraud, trickery, deception etc....The legal definition of theft is very, very broad.

In the scenario you pose I would be paying your claim all day long and have done so in the past.

This would be a covered loss.

[Avi Singh]

A common misconception. I've handled a claim for the EXACT same thing. I got a legal opinion to determine how the policy should respond.

You are covered under your comprehensive coverage. I appreciate what Avi states but that will not apply here in your scenario.

I could steal your bike by putting a gun to your head, or I can do it in a more clever way by using forged and fake documents. In either case my intent was to steal your bike. You're still the victim of a theft and that is covered by comprehensive.

Additionally, if you look up the definition of theft in the Blacks law dictionary it includes things like fraud, trickery, deception etc....The legal definition of theft is very, very broad.

In the scenario you pose I would be paying your claim all day long and have done so in the past.

This would be a covered loss.

Please clarify the following found on in Section 7 (optional loss or damage coverage - page 43) of the Ontario Automobile Policy:

We won't pay for loss or damage:
- resulting from a dishonest claim of ownership, illegal disposal, or theft of the
automobile by anyone who has legal possession of it under a written
agreement (a mortgage, conditional sale, lease or other similar agreement);
- resulting from a change in ownership that is agreed to, even if that change was
brought about by trickery or fraud;

Example
Late one evening at a party, you sell your car to a stranger in return for a
cheque. A week later the cheque bounces. We will not cover the loss.

The wording of the policy seems pretty clear on the issue to me. Or am I missing something?

[Rob MacLennan]

A common misconception. I've handled a claim for the EXACT same thing. I got a legal opinion to determine how the policy should respond.

You are covered under your comprehensive coverage. I appreciate what Avi states but that will not apply here in your scenario.

I could steal your bike by putting a gun to your head, or I can do it in a more clever way by using forged and fake documents. In either case my intent was to steal your bike. You're still the victim of a theft and that is covered by comprehensive.

Additionally, if you look up the definition of theft in the Blacks law dictionary it includes things like fraud, trickery, deception etc....The legal definition of theft is very, very broad.

In the scenario you pose I would be paying your claim all day long and have done so in the past.

This would be a covered loss.

I'm afraid that you're incorrect as this exact scenario has been played out dozens of times, in Ontario, with the person being out of luck. If you were involved in covering someone in such a situation, then good on you, but it isn't the norm.

[blkrx7]

As i've got a bike for sale right now, this is fore-front on my mind, and I absolutely 'hoped' my insurer would look after me. I'd intended on doing all due dilligence in protecting my assets, however if someone gave me a fake money order that passed muster with a teller, the first thing i'd do is call the police and report the bike stolen. Case number in hand, my next stop would be my agent.

I think the word 'change ownership' is somewhat key in the policy wording. I highly doubt anyone who showed up with a fake money order would be stupid enough to use their real name or real ID, or have any intention of registering the vehicle for use ever again. Which means it's not going to actually 'change ownership'. That VIN would remain in my name, and as such, it is a stolen bike regardless of how they've done it.

The insurance company's policy is attempting to protect themselves against stupid decisions by owners, selling for uncertain terms (Six goats and that fifth of rye), etc, then making a claim of a stolen machine that wasn't actually stolen. The wording certainly seems to suggest they wouldn't cover my claim, but i'm going to fight for it.

Wishful thinking perhaps, but I have a theft policy, and the police would consider it stolen, so do I.

Paul

[nakkers]

One thing to consider when going to the bank with a certified cheque. If your bank and the bank the certified cheque is issue from are the same, they can verify the funds and it shouldn't be a problem.

If the certified cheque is from a different bank, the issuing bank can still refuse to transfer the funds even though your bank has accepted the cheque. The issuing bank has 10 business days to refuse payment.

So, I would suggest if cash isn't possible and the potential buyer does present a certified cheque, call ahead to the issuing bank. (it doesn't need to be the actual branch that issued the cheque) Let them know you have a certified cheque for "XXXX" dollars that you would like to cash. They will arrange to have the cash available when you go in. Being that you are not a customer of that bank, you'll need to present government issued photo identification and subject to a service fee for cashing.

Just food for thought. It's not a guarante to prevent something from happening.

[TorontoBoy]

I believe a certified cheque can bounce if the certifying bank will not release the funds (fraud). In this case your bank will take this money out of your account. This is a common scam. The bank acted on good faith from the other bank, but if it is a fraudulent cheque they will not honour it.

To guarantee the funds from a certified cheque, go to the issuing bank and branch and cash the cheque. They can verify the cheque on the spot because they issued it. You get your cash right away. It is safe.

The Law Society of Upper Canada and LAWPRO have become aware of a new series of frauds involving counterfeit certified cheques.

Who is at risk? To date, the lawyers who have been targeted have been sole practitioners and lawyers in small firms. These new scams involve commercial loan transactions such as small business equipment or inventory purchases. The lawyer is retained to act for both the lender and borrower to obtain appropriate security for the loan.

The deals look legitimate, and typically the client is in a hurry and is new to the firm. Typically the lawyer receives and deposits the certified cheque that funds the transaction. He or she then draws certified cheques as the borrower has directed. Several days later the lawyer is advised that the certified cheque from the lender is bogus and there is a shortfall in his trust account.

How do you protect yourself?
If you are dealing with clients you do not know well, in order to protect yourself and your trust account, contact your bank and ask them to contact the bank issuing the certified cheque to verify the authenticity of the certified cheque, and to confirm that the funds have been cleared. If you draw from your trust account without the certified cheque being verified or cleared, your firm may be exposed to loss.

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