SOAR Input

[kneedragger88]

Practice out of the way. Great seeing everyone.
As all that was there experienced we ran the morning backwards. We used our best judgement as to chicane placement and building in runoff. We learned a few things and saw a few problems that will be addressed before the first backwards round. Here is our look at what we needed to accomplish.
#1 We needed to haul speed down to T1 to 3rd gear < 100mph
#2 Needed to keep the bikes away from the wall at entrance due to wall height
#3 Needed to remove pole in impact area
#4 Needed to move barrier wall back far enough to stop a crashed bike with minimum impact
I feel we accomplished all of the above successfully.
What we learned and will do is
#1 Start line will be near traditional T2 and finish in tradition spot
#2 Bales will be somehow bagged
#3 There will be a barrier and hard chicane (almost stopped) at pit in
#4 There will be a staggered barrier placed on connecting road between traditional T6 and T1 to stop errant bikes from making to straight.

With these points in mind I would love for some more input/criticism so we can make this work even better.

[MotoStark]

Hi Ken.

It was nice to meet you in person.

As a casual observer, and I believe this has been mentioned before, but I did notice some of the riders in the pit lane riding at a high rate of speed on their way to the track entrance. I am aware this organization takes safety seriously, and this is commendable.

Perhaps this could be addressed at the next riders meeting?


.

[kneedragger88]

Hi Ken.

It was nice to meet you in person.

As a casual observer, and I believe this has been mentioned before, but I did notice some of the riders in the pit lane riding at a high rate of speed on their way to the track entrance. I am aware this organization takes safety seriously, and this is commendable.

Perhaps this could be addressed at the next riders meeting?


.

There is a plan in place that will be implemented next round that will see a barrier to split the pit lane from bikes to pedestrians. Problem is the place was not designed properly and its akin to placing the genie back in the bottle. Our plan does not completely eliminate the problem however it will help. The ONLY way to eliminate the problem is to ban all pedestrian traffic from pit lane from the second inroad to the timing shack. Good luck implementing that one. Just for the record I do address pit lane speed at every riders meeting or at least attempt to. But you are correct it is a problem.

[sircastic]

Agreed slowing down pit in when running reverse direction, it was way too tempting to fire in at high speed.

If the chicane was moved closer to turn 1 it would stop the slight increase in speed between the two and it would flow better.

[toybm]

Practice out of the way. Great seeing everyone.
As all that was there experienced we ran the morning backwards. We used our best judgement as to chicane placement and building in runoff. We learned a few things and saw a few problems that will be addressed before the first backwards round. Here is our look at what we needed to accomplish.
#1 We needed to haul speed down to T1 to 3rd gear < 100mph
#2 Needed to keep the bikes away from the wall at entrance due to wall height
#3 Needed to remove pole in impact area
#4 Needed to move barrier wall back far enough to stop a crashed bike with minimum impact
I feel we accomplished all of the above successfully.
What we learned and will do is
#1 Start line will be near traditional T2 and finish in tradition spot
#2 Bales will be somehow bagged
#3 There will be a barrier and hard chicane (almost stopped) at pit in
#4 There will be a staggered barrier placed on connecting road between traditional T6 and T1 to stop errant bikes from making to straight.

With these points in mind I would love for some more input/criticism so we can make this work even better.

Great practice day Ken, it was great riding again, meeting new peaople and putting GTAM names to faces.

Running the track in reverse and it's layout was awesome, somehow I felt immediately a whole lot better doing it in reverse, but I'm a noob so anything is possible.

I like your plans for the reverse racees but I only have one concern. It is the proximity of the finish line to the hay bales when running in reverse, is there enough room for lest say, two or more bikes fighting for the finish line at WOT to get through ok? I'm not sure, since my perception of speed and skill level is not on par with the faster guys, but then again there will be more like me out ther too.

Once again great day, lots of tractime, thanks.

[CBRJOHN]

There is a plan in place that will be implemented next round that will see a barrier to split the pit lane from bikes to pedestrians. Problem is the place was not designed properly and its akin to placing the genie back in the bottle. Our plan does not completely eliminate the problem however it will help. The ONLY way to eliminate the problem is to ban all pedestrian traffic from pit lane from the second inroad to the timing shack. Good luck implementing that one. Just for the record I do address pit lane speed at every riders meeting or at least attempt to. But you are correct it is a problem.

Even something as simple as tall cones with some kind of rope or tape to connect then along pit lane with a sign at the end would let pedestrians know where to go and be easy to pick up and transport. Something along the lines of this.


As far as pit lane speed goes, A hold penalty based on a radar gun reading from the pit in marshall could be put in place. Last year the endurance round pit lane speeds were excessive even with the hold after pit in.

If they exceed the pit speed they get held at pit out for a additional period of 20 or 30 seconds erasing any advantage they gained from speeding on pit lane. a opportunity to mark their tach to the speed would be needed.

Having a second chicane between turn one and the pit wall would slow down the entry speeds into the pits when running reverse. Would also make for some close racing to the finish line and slow down the entry to the second chicane.
It would also make for some exciting racing close to the spectators.

We may have some farmers up this way that can do wrapped small square bales, A lot do wrapped large round bales. We could look into it.

It was Great Seeing every one yesteday, Looking forward to another exciting year.

Mrs CbrJohn (Aka Linda) I don't have a account here.

[Teal]

Agreed slowing down pit in when running reverse direction, it was way too tempting to fire in at high speed.

If the chicane was moved closer to turn 1 it would stop the slight increase in speed between the two and it would flow better.

Yup, especially when it's mid-session and you're trying to get to the pits to make slight suspension adjustments and get back out on track asap without losing too much heat. A barrier sounds like a great idea.

I also required some throttle input between the new chicane and Turn 1 but I probably just wasn't going fast enough upon entry (only ran one session in the morning and started out with loose suspension). I felt a little blind going into the chicane too, and heaven forbid someone has an off there, as I think it could get pretty messy.

All in all, yesterday was a great day. So many thanks to the organizers, volunteers and Racer5 for the free BBQ.

[eastcoast_gsx]

Ken,

I have drawn up a very crude diagram of what we talked about on Saturday, I feel that the first set of hay bales should be smaller and the second and 3rd one should be bigger.

This would not filter bikes in towards the wall as it currently did. In a race, there could be "n" number of bikes headed down into there at the same time, anyone caught on the inside would be SOL if the outer rider did not relent on the position (this is racing right). There are zero options for that poor SOB (well there are 2, wall or hay-bale followed by a superman maneuver)

In the diagram Option #2 keeps people out a bit further from the wall, and riders can still be in the correct position for the entry to turn 1. The 2nd and 3rd hay walls should extend a little further to cut back on speed as well. Just a crude diagram, but you can see what I am thinking. In this option the grass is at least a viable option, please keep in mind that this diagram is rough, and could use some more examination.

And last but not least, once you decide on a hay-bale pattern, you should mark it out well so that there is no second guessing next time AND that the approach will not change from reverse weekend to reverse weekend (as does the dumb Calgary chicane) This affects lap times AND the riders will be able to expect the same entry and exit week after week.

Please see attachment, or let me know if you cannot see it. I will email it to you as well.

Let me know what you think.

[Brian P]

I think option 2 would be an improvement. The way it is now, if you are on the right of someone else who attempts to almost-straight-line through the chicane (which is the fastest way through - that's racing) you are SCREWED. If you force riders to start turning before they pass the center of the two barriers, it should at least allow them to make room for the rider on the right.

[kneedragger88]

I do not want you in the "right" position for T1. That is why there is a third row keeping you away from the wall. The wall in that area is very low (probably less than 5 feet). By allowing the bikes more room in that area it has the potential for two to tangle and possibly climb the wall into the spectators.
I know that riders want more room however my dilemma here is I dont want to allow for the potential of any passing in this area if I can help it. If its set up right it should be single file and speed controlled. Once again wearing my organizer hat IF there is going to be a wreck better early than late if a rider tucks and smokes two or three rows of small bales there is no possible way the bike will make it to the solid barrier and more importantly any spectators.
If I was to implement either example I would have to move it even deeper into the corner taking away all speed as then the runoff would also be diminished.
Keep it coming though.

[invictus43]

By allowing the bikes more room in that area it has the potential for two to tangle and possibly climb the wall into the spectators.

I was spectating yesterday and I would echo that sentiment. I was actually downstream of the bales and started thinking, what if someone hits a bale and a bike gets launched over the wall? I moved upstream of the bales.

[Brian P]

One other small thing. The Superior Propane signs are highly visible as brake markers, but big countdown numbers on them would save having to mentally count them while approaching the corner!

[kneedragger88]

One other small thing. The Superior Propane signs are highly visible as brake markers, but big countdown numbers on them would save having to mentally count them while approaching the corner!

Agreed but to make them is a minimum run of 100 so I would end up having 100 of each number.......
Better the signs than the nasty cones that sometimes are there and sometimes not.

[eastcoast_gsx]

I do not want you in the "right" position for T1. That is why there is a third row keeping you away from the wall. The wall in that area is very low (probably less than 5 feet). By allowing the bikes more room in that area it has the potential for two to tangle and possibly climb the wall into the spectators.
I know that riders want more room however my dilemma here is I dont want to allow for the potential of any passing in this area if I can help it. If its set up right it should be single file and speed controlled. Once again wearing my organizer hat IF there is going to be a wreck better early than late if a rider tucks and smokes two or three rows of small bales there is no possible way the bike will make it to the solid barrier and more importantly any spectators.
If I was to implement either example I would have to move it even deeper into the corner taking away all speed as then the runoff would also be diminished.
Keep it coming though.

I agree with you, you can move in more hay-bales, make them longer (to reduce speed), move them closer to the turn, etc... As it was saturday, we could get through there with a very slight side to side action anyway... with more practice, a fast rider would have been able to cook through that setup easily.

BUT, you really should try and reduce the possibility of a rider being trapped with nowhere to go coming into the start of the hay-bales. Once the riders are inside the bales, you can look at many things to keep speed down and take away most bonehead attempts.

I am strictly trying to focus on the entrance to the entire "structure" that is where I can see most problems occuring (and likely at speed or hard on the brakes). It is good to provide a decent "way out" in the likely event that someone has misjudged their approach.

But I am glad you are taking the initiative to run it backwards, it will provide some much needed variation to the original layout

[kneedragger88]

I agree with you, you can move in more hay-bales, make them longer (to reduce speed), move them closer to the turn, etc... As it was saturday, we could get through there with a very slight side to side action anyway... with more practice, a fast rider would have been able to cook through that setup easily.

BUT, you really should try and reduce the possibility of a rider being trapped with nowhere to go coming into the start of the hay-bales. Once the riders are inside the bales, you can look at many things to keep speed down and take away most bonehead attempts.

I am strictly trying to focus on the entrance to the entire "structure" that is where I can see most problems occuring (and likely at speed or hard on the brakes). It is good to provide a decent "way out" in the likely event that someone has misjudged their approach.

But I am glad you are taking the initiative to run it backwards, it will provide some much needed variation to the original layout

Dont you think its better to manage the potential problem at the entrance while straight up and down than suck the bikes in with a faster entrance then narrow/tighten it up mid chicane? I cant make an escape lane or again someone blows it and blasts either inside or outside and straight into someone else setting up the corner. I would rather a rider nail the bales and side down the track to a stop long before the barrier rather than blasting at speed into someone else much slower and two or more bikes crashing much later in the chicane and then into the barrier.

[eastcoast_gsx]

Dont you think its better to manage the potential problem at the entrance while straight up and down than suck the bikes in with a faster entrance then narrow/tighten it up mid chicane? I cant make an escape lane or again someone blows it and blasts either inside or outside and straight into someone else setting up the corner. I would rather a rider nail the bales and side down the track to a stop long before the barrier rather than blasting at speed into someone else much slower and two or more bikes crashing much later in the chicane and then into the barrier.

Not sure I follow you. There will be much more speed there anyway, no matter how you dice it up... people are coming down there FAST. You will still have to scrub speed to enter (allot of speed) but you can be on the outside of the track and not stuck on the inside IMO.

I am far from an expert, it's just the way I see it. What does Bickle think? He usually has an opinion

And another thing, if I am on the inside, and I slam into the bales, I may end up in the path of the rider that made the entrance.

[reciprocity]

2 chicanes??

[Brian P]

Dont you think its better to manage the potential problem at the entrance while straight up and down than suck the bikes in with a faster entrance then narrow/tighten it up mid chicane?

What about making the second barrier with cones rather than bales?

This would aim someone who is hung out to dry, away from the normal line around that barrier but give them an option to stay on the brakes rather than going full speed into a hay bale. Yes, there might be some potential for a side-to-side glancing blow between bikes as both trajectories converge afterward, but that's a lot less severe and both riders would have some time to see it coming and adjust for it.

I don't think hitting a hay bale while hard on the brakes would result in a "slide down the track". I think it would result in the back end of the bike coming up and flipping over with the rider ending up either in front of the bike or underneath it. I sure wouldn't want to try hitting a hay bale that hard with a straight-on impact.

[kneedragger88]

Not sure I follow you. There will be much more speed there anyway, no matter how you dice it up... people are coming down there FAST. You will still have to scrub speed to enter (allot of speed) but you can be on the outside of the track and not stuck on the inside IMO.

I am far from an expert, it's just the way I see it. What does Bickle think? He usually has an opinion

And another thing, if I am on the inside, and I slam into the bales, I may end up in the path of the rider that made the entrance.

I dont want you near the wall. Its low and potentially dangerous to spectators. Bickle was involved with laying it out. We set and reset it a bunch of times. I am not opposed to reversing the entrance as you suggested at the track. But the exit MUST be away from the wall. If it makes the entrance awkward to T1 I am perfectly fine with that. First priority is safety both riders and spectators.
If the riders figure out a way to blast through there too fast then we will readjust to tighten it up. Maybe with another row so its a left, right, left then a choke down.
Actually Bics comment is when the riders are complaining you have done it right

[kneedragger88]

2 chicanes??

spoken like a motarder Maybe we can add a dirt section and a jump.