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Jeeze. Sticking up for Richie Rich working out for you.Originally Posted by 82Seca750
Taxes are based on this system to keep it fair. To coerce the wealthy to help cover teh costs of the poor.
Crazy talk i know.
I'll drive you to the airport...probably a private one....and help you load your rhinestone bags ont your gulf 5.
Get used to it man. Provided you have a few years left on this planet it will only get worse.
and hell hole? Jeeze. Maybe a trip out of the 705 area code would give you some perspective. The world is soooooooo much better everywhere else.
Your going back to my ignore list.
Do you propose the same for other types of crimes? Because some poor un-employed idiot commits murder they should get less penalty than a fine working person such as myself?
Don't punish me more because I work harder than some other poor sop who committed the EXACT SAME infraction.
We are talking about HTA fines at the moment.
The idea of the wealthy helping the poor is not a new thought. Well to some it seems to be, but in our society (aka socialist hell hole) the wealthy would rather just let the poor stew.
Whatever. The wealthy will continue to have the upper hand in all regards, in all societal structures. They will spend millions to fight such a law, instead of just manning up and paying the fine for their stupidity.
To add, you dont see many "homeless" people riding around on bikes in canada.
you apparently have a problem with people who have a lot of money....and I don't
you assume that I have boatloads of money because of my stance on the subject and I don't....I've done alright....but I'm far from loaded
I do know quite a few folks who have serious loads, and imo they've worked their tails off to get it....and don't deserve unbalanced punishment for the same infraction as someone who doesn't have the same income
Rob, I am quite disappointed in you. Especially due to the fact that you are a moderator on here. Traffic fines are punishment for breaking the law. Just like going to jail is the punishment for breaking the law. At the end of the day we are talking about breaking the law here and how the punishment should or shouldnt vary based on the particulars of the person breaking the law.
If you cannot see how fining someone extra for a speeding ticket because of their financial status is in the same general category as longer prison terms based how much someone enjoys their time in their normal life then I really do not know what to say to you.
What if one guy makes 50K a year but lives at home but another makes 100K but has a mortgage, a wife and 8 kids to support? who values their money more? What if a guy has 100k in his bank account but owns a business that he just had his biggest loses on? Obviously there are too many factors for any court to determine a fine based on finances unless a thorough investigation is done. They would have to audit his entire financial life. Similarly to determine how much someone values their time we would have to do a thorough investigation of their past life and hire psychologist to give us an educated option. Who would pay for the through investigation?
Do you not see how ridiculous that sounds? There are set fines and punishment for breaking the law so lets keep it that way. Any arbitrariness creates chaos and disorder that society simply cannot deal with. Don't we have enough problems as is ?
Ride smart.... live to ride another day
Well it's about balance. Funny you shuld say that. The idea is that the crime has the same impact on everyone, regardless of how loaded they are.
Glad to hear your doing ok, and sorry to hear you dont think it appropriate to equal treatment, regardless of financial status. Pretty standard western view.
The wealthy guys get all the perks as they can afford crime more than the little man.
Moderator
There are also people who work their butts of in order to take home $30K a year, and people who have money simply because great granddaddy sold hooch in the 1920s. As I've tried to point out, the sliding scale that Switzerland uses is present to try and make a monetary fine as much of a deterrent to a street sweeper, as it is to a corporate CEO.
As I said, it's a completely spurious argument. If you are equating time out of someone's life to a monetary value then I'm sorry, you've missed the boat. The comparison is ludicrous. It beggars credibility in the debate.
Morally Ambiguous (submissions welcome)
"Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth." - Oscar Wilde
You might be right about rich people and their insurance tactics, but I wouldn't know.
The top ten list of stolen cars however, (easily found through Google) is usually filled with what most people would consider "average" cars.
The reality is that cars worth money in parts (Civics, Jap imports), or cars that are easy to steal (joy riders, petty offenders, use in other crimes) are those that are stolen more often.
Expensive luxury cars are harder to steal, so are more susceptible to break-ins.
Sorry for the OT.
Yes I an equating time out of someone's life to monetary value. You know why? Have you ever heard the saying that time=money. Did that rich person not spend their TIME to make their money(Or someone their know did that at some point?). And if a poor guy spends the same amount of time as the rich guy working and didn't make as much does that mean that on the reverse end of things that the rich guy should legally get less time in jail because his time is more valuable? Essentially by taking their money away you are taking their time away. If I worked hard to make 1 million dollars and I know I would lose any of it just because someone thought I was rich and thought I should pay more for doing the same things a someone less fortunate maybe I would use that time to .......let say ride my bike all day instead of going to work?
Ride smart.... live to ride another day
Moderator
It happens every year, through income tax. This is how their system tried to make punishments equivalent, across all sectors of society. Ours does so via the points system. Apparently they find that their system works well enough for them and Switzerland has a fairly high ratio of millionaires to regular folk.
*EDIT* If you want to get sticky about it, let's call time equal for everyone. Barring misfortune or illness, we all have roughly the same amount of time on Earth. That means that money is the sliding scale. The fine for speeding then becomes an equal TIME value for all who are fined.
But it's a facetious argument anyway, at best.
Last edited by Rob MacLennan; 01-08-2010 at 02:44 PM.
Morally Ambiguous (submissions welcome)
"Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth." - Oscar Wilde
look....you want equal treatment.....then scrap the current income tax system and lay out a head tax that's the same for everyone...then we can discuss income based fines for traffic infractions
how about everyone in Ontario pays the same health premium too
the way I see it....the current upper income crowd are already paying the freight to subsidize the poor through the current income tax system...not enough? too bad
wealthy guys can afford more crime eh???.....your ugly side is starting to show there dank
First solid point for the other team!!
Not really... it's reaching for an extreme case that's not likely to occur when talking about HTA fines. We're not talking about jail time when dealing with the HTA. Unless you kill someone behind the wheel or handle bars (clip ons? :P) then jail time shouldn't be considered in this discussion.
Not to mention that it's already difficult to assume how a person values a dollar, based on their wages (hence the entire discussion in this thread)... there are frivolous rich people, as well as frugal rich people. However, now we're trying to assume how people value their time?
The opposite can be said about people's time: Perhaps a millionaire-single dude with no dependants doesn't mind spending time in jail... since he's wealthy he should do MORE time... His investments and fortune will be there when he gets back. As opposed to the single mother of three children, raking in $30k per year cannot possibly afford even a day in jail... We're venturing onto a much more slippery slope with a sliding scale for jail times.
Yes but with income tax in Canada the government allows us to put away money for retirement that they give us taxes back on. If we have dependents we get money back and so forth. That is their way of validating how much money someone which is disposable that they can charge taxes on. Unless you can "file taxes" against those increase fines because of your financial status and get some of it back then it doesn't make sense and is unjust.
Taxes are already there to make rich people pay more than the average on the money that's deemed as disposable...........no need to stretch it to other things. What if you have two bikes and you speed should they take on and give it to someone else as punishment because you have two? Where does its stop? Should you pay taxes on everyday goods and services based on your income as well? Should poor people be allowed to steal because they cant afford to buy things?
Ride smart.... live to ride another day
Moderator
While you were typing out your response, I added this to the end of my last post:
If you want to get sticky about it, let's call time equal for everyone. Barring misfortune or illness, we all have roughly the same amount of time on Earth. That means that money is the sliding scale. The fine for speeding then becomes an equal TIME value for all who are fined.
But it's a facetious argument anyway, at best.
Morally Ambiguous (submissions welcome)
"Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth." - Oscar Wilde
I find it funny that those arguing against this, are using taxes as a parallel to punishment.
I agree; taxes suck, but taxes are unavoidable, and inevitable if you want to be part of this "socialist hell hole", otherwise known as Canada. The good news is that breaking the law via Traffic Violations IS avoidable.
lmao.
The fine isn't supposed to be just about punishment. It's also supposed to act as a deterrent to you doing the offense again or others doing it at all.
A $500 fine can be a strong deterrent to someone who has to work 50 hours to make that money back. A $500 fine is no deterrent at all to someone who can replace that amount in a 50 minutes or less.
Clearly the deterrent factor is not adequate if someone chooses to repeat-offend again. When that happens, it's not unusual for courts to increase the punishment for a repeat offender in hopes that the stiffer fine will be more effective at deterrence in future than the lesser fine was before.
With our Swiss driver, one of the articles I read noted that he was a repeat high-mile speeding offender. Making a bogus claim of diplomatic immunity probably didn't impress the judges either.
Read awful English translation here http://translate.google.com/translat...38&sl=de&tl=en
Another article notes that this type of fine system was chosen by Swiss voters themselves to replace a previous system which could have put our "poor" driver in prison.
In 2002 Swiss voters approved replacing prison terms for some offenses, including speeding, with fines based on your income. According to Tages Anzeiger, the lead-footed driver has an annual income of more than $820,000 and is worth well over $20 million. (Here’s the English translation of the story.)
And another tip if you are caught and given a hefty fine in Switzerland: Don’t make any big claims to try and get out of the ticket. The Testarossa driver was initially fined a little less than $90,000 by the local jurisdiction. That was raised to $145,000 by the next court after the driver claimed diplomatic immunity, saying he is diplomat from the Republic of Guinea-Bissau. That didn’t sway the court, which boosted the fine to $290,000.
Read More http://www.wired.com/autopia/2010/01...#ixzz0c3O9FvSm
I've got no sympathy for him. Just for you though, I'll mention that he only has to pay half the fine now. The other half of the fine is suspended for the time being and will be waived if he can avoid further speeding convictions. That seems like a bit of a deterrent right there.
I underlined why I have much problem with the thought of income based fines
it's that easy that it just rolls off the keyboard eh..
....$500 can very easily be the same deterrent....and it's irresponsible to think otherwise
when someone works hard for their money regardless of the amount, taking a sum from them as a punishment should not be put on some scale based on their financial worth because that has no relevance on how they value their money and simply assumes that the more you have the more people can take without you caring
far from it
and I'm not gonna debate the details of this dummy who got the $290k fine...cause he's an idiot and pretty much knew the rules over there upfront
You're missing the whole point. There is no way for the court to determine what an acceptable fine is based on income because how said income is used or distributed is NOT investigated. Even if one would agree that those who have more money should pay more for a crime, how does the court determine what the actual disposable income of that person is.
You have completely ignored the part of the argument that outlines that the court does not take into consideration what dependents, retirement fund or other such factors that the government considers when allowing us to get income tax refunds. Judges are not accountants and therefore should not be in a position to determine how much more money an individual should pay based on the dollar value in the bank account. To do this someone's entire financial situation should be considered. When you introduce an opportunity for there to be arbitrariness in the law (like Bill 203) then you increase the chances of that particular law being abused.
Would you be ok with fines just being a % of an individual's taxable income with a set minimum?
Ride smart.... live to ride another day
Your a broken record man.
And yea, i think it is fair that those who make more contribute more. The more fortunate help the less fortunate. Your blather presumes i'm on the low side of the scale right? Another of the unwashed millions trying to steal from you. BAH. Get over yourself.
and you suggest MY ugly side is showing.
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