HWY Traffic act fines to increase Jan 2010

[AdRath]

That's because the current laws, traffic planning and enforcement practices don't work. Well, the HTA, the way it was written before Bill 203 mostly would have worked if everything got equally enforced. Unfortunately, people in general can roll through stops, neglect to signal, operate unsafe vehicles and obstruct traffic with impunity, as long as they don't speed. 90% of HTA enforcement are speed traps, with the inclusion of value-added tickets is something obvious about the vehicle and/or documents hits the constable over the head. That's why your worst offenders will say something along the lines of "I'm a safe driver - I don't speed." Worse penalties across the board won't fix that.

I agree 100%. Too much focus on speeding (which just contributes to severity) rather than the root cause of most accidents. Law enforcement has gotten lazy and only goes after the 'easy' tickets.

As I've chirped thousands of times equiping police with good equipment to collect video evidence of infractions will make prosecuting these 'causes' of accidents easier to acheive maybe enouraging police to actually start to enforce these rules of the road.

[FiReSTaRT]

Tell that to the police union.

[Rob MacLennan]

I agree 100%. Too much focus on speeding (which just contributes to severity) rather than the root cause of most accidents. Law enforcement has gotten lazy and only goes after the 'easy' tickets.

As I've chirped thousands of times equiping police with good equipment to collect video evidence of infractions will make prosecuting these 'causes' of accidents easier to acheive maybe enouraging police to actually start to enforce these rules of the road.

I agree completely. There needs to be more emphasis on infractions other than speeding ('Hollywood stops', following too closely, unsignalled lane changes, etc.). Video evidence also helps to remove ambiguity. Those who constantly criticize those who choose to fight their tickets can only see this as a good thing, while those who believe that police are 'the enemy' must see that cameras provide a level of protection from abuse.

[turbodish]

That's why your worst offenders will say something along the lines of "I'm a safe driver - I don't speed." Worse penalties across the board won't fix that.

That's also why some of your worst offenders also say "I'm a safe rider - I might do double and triple the speed limit and sometimes while up on one wheel, but I don't run stop signs."

It's the same kind of narcissim, only expressed from a different angle.

Deterence is a product of probability of being caught x probability of a penalty imposed x the painfulness of that penalty.

If any one of the three elements is zero, there is no deterrence factor. If any of the three elements rises, so does the effective deterrence.

Like it or not, harsher penalties do work to increase deterrence. Just take a look at HTA172. There are a lot of people who have openly admitted that the penalties have forced them to thinjk twice about what they do on the road.

[twinn]

Since we are on the topic anyway, can someone in the know please how this minimum/maximum works in HTA fines?

I understand that the minimum might be $200, so on what basis does the fine increase to $1000? Is it up to the police officer issuing the ticket or the JP hearing the case?

Is that $200-$1000 totally arbiturary to the police officer writting the ticket? Does it depend on what kind of day they are having? I know that in the city they have "community saftey zones" where speeding fines are increased and thats where a majority of radar enforcement is centered, is it the same deal with the min/max fine?

And who sets the fines for the HTA? A committee, the police themselves? a public agency? politicans? I just want to know as I have heard it a few times that cops do not set the fines, they just enforce the laws.

[El Zilcho]

Like it or not, harsher penalties do work to increase deterrence.

Not quite. They may work up to a certain level, but beyond that they no longer do. People will take chances no matter what. It's the inevitability of the penalty that is the real deterring factor, not the severity of it.

[Torren]

Im all for it. Let them double the fines again and i'll still be fine with it. Some people need to learn the hard way. If losing a house payment is what it takes then so be it.

[El Zilcho]

Im all for it. Let them double the fines again and i'll still be fine with it. Some people need to learn the hard way. If losing a house payment is what it takes then so be it.

Are you sure this is hard enough to get all of those "some people"? Maybe there should be jail sentences for all traffic violations?

[FiReSTaRT]

Are you sure this is hard enough to get all of those "some people"? Maybe there should be jail sentences for all traffic violations?

Also for littering, for spitting, for not shoveling your sidewalk on time, for improper parking (including distance from and angle to the curb), and if we include forced labour from which the province will profit.... Oh my!!!!

[Torren]

Are you sure this is hard enough to get all of those "some people"? Maybe there should be jail sentences for all traffic violations?

You will never get rid of all of thoes "some people" the best we can hope for is to cut down on their numbers.

[El Zilcho]

You will never get rid of all of thoes "some people" the best we can hope for is to cut down on their numbers.

Do you still think that increasing fines for everybody is the right thing to do?

[FiReSTaRT]

You will never get rid of all of thoes "some people" the best we can hope for is to cut down on their numbers.

When you start ruining the lives of thousands of otherwise law-abiding citizens just to get to a few dozens of hardcore offenders, you reach a point of diminishing returns.

[82Seca750]

You will never get rid of all of thoes "some people" the best we can hope for is to cut down on their numbers.

and crazy raised fines will do SFA for those "some people"....just more out there drving without insurance or a license

99% of us take the $100ish sting and associated penalites (aka insurance) and take it seriously....the other 1% could care less....they're driving regardless

so this increase only clogs the courts even more with the 99% saying gimme a break???....cause nobody regardless of income gives away a $1000 plus without fighting

what these increased fines do encourage however is the increased spiral of uncontrolable debt for those who truly can't afford it

over 70% of the Ontario population live outside of the GTA and completely depend on personal transport...so they can't function without a car......I have 3 four-wheelers and 1 two-wheeler and I could give them all away and function without an issue because I live steps from public transit to my office, and every need and convenience otherwise

give a North Bay student living with his folks a $2000 fine...go for it....give him a $4000 fine.....take his license away for 2 years.....you know what?.....he's still gonna drive because he has too

raising the fines to this level just lowers the bar and inadvertently creates criminals where there wouldn't have been if they left it as it was

apparently, the McGuinty Gov't seems to think we're all made of money

[turbodish]

When you start ruining the lives of thousands of otherwise law-abiding citizens just to get to a few dozens of hardcore offenders, you reach a point of diminishing returns.

Well, you be sure to let us know when those "thousand of otherwise law-abiding citizens'" lives have been ruined by a $200 seatbelt ticket.

[rust0r]

Fine should be income based as they are in many European countries, for the exact reasons many have listed here

Hit a student with a $2K fine for something stupid and you will cripple them, hit a 40-50ish year old making 60K, yes $2K hurts, but it will no where near cripple them the way it would a student making 1/4 the income (and I say a 1/4 being generous)

The 40-50 year old might have to wait an extra month before remodeling their bathroom, the student is now on a very tight grocery budget for the rest of the year

I got pulled over the other night for having a license plate cover on my car, I wasn't speed or doing anything that warranted being pulled over. Friday night @ 9:30, everyone is predrinking before heading out to the bars, and the police have a random setup on a side street watching cars go by with 4+ units ahead pulling them over. I counted in the following days, I would say a good 1/6 cars have license plate covers on their vehicles, some of them yellow, blue or pink.

You can't possibly tell them their time would not be better spent with a R.I.D.E. program near the bar district.

This province is slowly mirroring the Nazi state of California

[mxs]

Fine should be income based as they are in many European countries, ....

Which countries are those? I've never heard of it before and cannot see how that could possibly work.

[Gary]

Which countries are those? I've never heard of it before and cannot see how that could possibly work.

It's been that way and working well for years in Lower Slobbovia.

[rust0r]

nice Gary lol

Which countries are those? I've never heard of it before and cannot see how that could possibly work.

http://www.aftenposten.no/english/lo...cle2202254.ece

Millionaire fined $85,000 for driving drunk

Norway is the country in this case, but there are MANY other countries that do it based on your income, or have a fixed percentage for a particular offense and it is measured against your reported income


It's sad to see football players and coaches getting fined into the 6 figures simply because of a gesture or comment they made that simply OFFEND people, meanwhile idiots in our country can drive around intoxicated with drastically lower fines. Who has the greater chance at harming someone for life?

[Torren]

"Do you still think that increasing fines for everybody is the right thing to do"

The actions of a few spoil it for the many.

Personally what i would like to see is a system of radically increasing fines for re offenders. Something along the lines of, 1st time offense of no seat belt - $200. 2nd time offense $1,000. 3rd time $5,000. I know the system already hands out steeper fines for reoffenders, but i'd like to see it escalate more rapidly.

"When you start ruining the lives of thousands of otherwise law-abiding citizens just to get to a few dozens of hardcore offenders, you reach a point of diminishing returns."

If your life is going to be ruined by getting a 2k fine, perhaps you should be cautious and make sure your driving within the confines of the law.

Driving is a privilege not a right. If you can't play within the rules, you don't get to play.

Will this lead to more drivers on the roads with suspended license's and no insurance? It might. Hopefully law enforcement will be able to weed them out.. but that would mean that would actually have to do some work and enforce something other then speeding. It's not a perfect system but it's the one we have.

If memory serves correctly, the traffic offense fines by annual income is practiced in most scandinavian countries and is highly effective.

[El Zilcho]

Driving is a privilege not a right. If you can't play within the rules, you don't get to play.

That sounds like a communist propaganda. The reality is that for a lot of people driving is a necessity---they have to drive to support themselves. Depriving them of that is similar in nature to putting them in prison.

All in all, the punishment needs to match the crime.